Veterinary Health: Embark • Amish Desai
Data Interoperability: Extracting Value from Siloed Datasets
What happens when pets become family – and when science gives us more information about them than ever before?
Amish Desai, CEO of Embark Veterinary, joins UnNatural Selection to explore the transformation of pet health from breed identification and DNA testing toward personalized, preventative care.
We talk about the humanization of pets, changing demographics, the explosion of pet spending, genetics, epigenetics, AI, telemedicine, behavioral data, and the emerging role of community in pet care.
But the deeper lesson extends far beyond pets.
When customers are overwhelmed by information and choices, the competitive advantage may no longer be having the most data or the most products. It may be the ability to turn complexity into context, insight, and action.
Amish also explains how AI is collapsing experimentation cycles – and why that could fundamentally change how companies innovate and compete.
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Nic (00:31)
Amish, welcome to a natural selection, man. It's been a while since we've been talking about this, so I'm excited to have you on the show.
Amish Desai (00:37)
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to win and it's it's been a long time, Nick.
Nic (00:41)
No, but I I'm looking forward to this is a conversation that you and I have obviously talked about off camera for a while. And so I'm I'm eager to jump into it. But before doing so, I always start with the same signature question to give you a chance to give us a context about what drives your week's work. So Amish, can you please let us know what need or impact drives your work?
Amish Desai (01:04)
my my why really starts with where I come from, Nick. as an immigrant, I you know I really came to appreciate that nothing is really sort of given and you own it. You always have to push yourself. And so that experience really has forged inside of me that that inner drive is is a switch that I've never turned off.
And I think as I've sort of come to sort of push more, do more, be more, I think I carried this sort of this added sort of responsibility to always give back to folks who've helped me over the years. And that is the most honest thing I know about myself. And so when I came to the pet care you know, this idea of companion animal space, I was struck by something that has stayed with me over the years, is which is
There is a vastness of capital that has inflowed. And the the I think the power of science in this space has been amazing. And yet the most profound sort of opportunity that I see is I think that is often hiding in plain sight is the idea of pet parenthood. And I know that you are a pet parent. I think you were once upon a time also like a pet parent. And so I think to me, that pet parent who's awake at the 11 p.m. hour, trying to figure out, you know, with a with a sick dog and trying to figure out, you know, how do I solve some, you know, of of the last-minute night.
Like last evening headaches, and really searching for those answers. And what I could not let go of this idea is that.
Pet pet pets are really part of the family today. And so I think the pet owners deserve way more than that. And I think my mission really sort of back to my immigrant days is let's build this community of pet owners where they really get to learn, they let to connect, they they get to meet others, they have a voice that actually truly matters. And I think that tangible sense of belonging is really what's been the drive and the why for me. And that's what excites me every day.
Nic (02:53)
Yeah, that's great. And I like you said, I can definitely relate to this and and I think a lot of people can as well, right? Because I think one of the one of the interesting trends that I I I spoke with, I I interviewed the the executive director of the McKinsey Global Health Institute. she specialized in human demographic change. And one of the things that we talked about was how
Human demographics across all industrialized nations, we're way, we're either below the replacement rate or way below. I think South Korea's at like 0.7. in fact, they're selling more dog strollers than baby strollers in South Korea at this point. And so I think the reason why I bring this up is because the the need for connection for people is still there. And I think from what I've heard, it's also caused an in an increase in the amount of pet.
parents and and animal adoption rates and so on and and and so that probably either you're probably very familiar with that trend and maybe it plays into some of the thinking and the strategy around embark.
Amish Desai (04:01)
Yeah, I think I'll just give you a little bit of context. and I've only been with this industry over the last four years. And so I came from consumer, retail consumer backgrounds. And as you know, retail, you know, it's it's like the most unforgiving sort of consumer lab if you work in retail, where you really get to sort of discern what is the consumer looking for. And it's not about having just a fantastic product, it's really about that emotional connection. And so I brought that consumer sort of lens to this sort of, you know, this idea of, you know, pet animal.
sort of DNA space. But if you go back in time, about fifty years ago, I think one out of four you know pets were really sort of roaming free on the streets and of this country.
And it was early 70s, I think roughly, 35 million pets, dogs and cats were actually sort of sort of gonna kill or sort of so I think they were sort of shelters. And I think when you think step back and say, geez, what happened then? these these dogs and cats were really were animals, they were not really in part of the family. And so I think what has changed over time is sort of fascinating that the idea of fleas and ticks came on board and those sort of treatments came into the late.
1800s. And then the idea of urbanization came along. You know, we all sort of moved to smaller cities and closer quarters. And then the power of science came through. Like really the breakthrough was the veterinarian advanced science that really sort of made having a pet more safer. And so I think that that whole transition really sort of step by step has evolved and deepened the bond between pet owners and sort of, you know,
dogs and cats, of course. And then by the year, sort of we go back about two decades ago, roughly, or even a decade ago, you know, more than two-thirds of Americans really felt like, okay, now pets are part of the family. And so I think that shift has been seismic. And I think that to me is like really a complete cultural rewrite. Is is is sort of what sort of you know really excites me about it. And then you fast forward to that when you had this thing called the like this idea of, you know, thing called in a pandemic.
And what happened in that cycle of time, which was really a whole like a whole decade worth of time sort of been condensed into this sort of single sort of cycle, and about 23 million households really adopted pets. And so think about just the just the massive transformation that sort of underwent through that that just single in a moment. And if you think about the spending of pet as you're highlighting, it went from $90 billion to $120 billion overnight.
And and then you really, if you really double-click into it, well, who is who are those folks who are adopting pets? You know, so clearly all of you know all of the millennials were like the bulk of the majority of the adopters. but a third of the Gen Zs who are adopting pets in that in that window of time were adopting more for their mental health. And so
Every decade, every era has been sort of shape-shifting this sort of logic of where does pet pet parenthood go? And today it's sitting at almost a hundred fifty billion dollar market. And yes, the ownership has steadied. that has been fascinating. I mean, there are like 80, 88, 90, almost 90 million dogs. there are like 70 million cats.
And so really about you know, there are seventy million households that that have a pet. And so the idea of the whole idea of an humanization of pet.
Which is what I call where really it's become now a fabric and part of the family. almost 20% of pet owners who have pets today might even view them as their children, like the true pet parent. And so I think there has been this sort of seismic evolution in my view, that as I see this time has elapsed, science clearly being the glue, it then you then you step back and say, Well, where is the pet parent in this journey?
and I think to me, there are these massive B2B2C players. There are massive single category players of food and strollers and Korea and whatever. But the pet parent today, in our in our in my view, is really sort of drowning with this sort of inner tyranny of choices and this overwhelming vastness of data pools and whatnot. And so I think to me that is where the gap still resides is how do we help those pet owners back to my logic of this 11
P.m. hour, I wake up, my dog is sick, who do I call? Where do I go? And I think that is the gap that I think I think we are trying to fill in. I think, you know, at Embark because
there's been this sort of evolution of science and I think that has been enabling the scare, but how do we sort of really empower in the palms of the pet owners to bring that happen? And so I think that advancement has been great. I think adoption has steadied. the other fascinating thing that you know we only look at dogs in my business today. there's been often at least, you know, a few months go by and you know somebody says, what are you launching cats? cats is on our radar, of course. but I think to me, I think
I think the interesting dynamic really because affordability has been sort of the pain point, you know, I think as we think about life today in America and you know housing has been sort of slowing down and whatnot, that people are migrating towards cats and cat has seen this ups you know uptick, almost to a point where the the ratio of puppies to kittens is really one-to-one in American households.
And so you step back and say, you know, where is all this going? it is great to see the dog's ownership. But I think I think it comes down to lifestyle. You know, as you were a pet owner or a dog owner too, it's a different lifestyle than having a cat. and so I think at the end of the day, this complete sort of shift.
Where do you play? How do you go? There are many more trends that I can talk about. But I think when I step back and I look at this landscape of where the evolution of the adoption cycle has been, and as you were highlighting about the replacement rate on the humans, and you see across the country, you're right. I think you know the the the folks, the younger cohorts are you know deferring marriages, in some cases not having a child. And I think the idea of humanization of pet is very much real.
Okay.
And I think that is what sort of gives more energy to the sector that has had such fantastic growth. So I think it's it's fun to be part of this industry because you know, when you come from a fashion background like myself and you put this to the idea of in a consumer, it just sort of highlights that how do you make them the centerfold attention? because the pet parents are the ones making decisions every step of the way. and I think that's where the business that that I have the privilege of
leading is really trying to like instill step by step how do we fill those gaps.
Nic (11:01)
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I I actually have follow-on questions to everything we just talked about, but before doing so, can you tell us a little bit about what Embark does for people that aren't familiar with the company? obviously we're already kind of jumping into a very specific topic around pet health. so I think people probably get that idea already. But yeah, it'd be great for you to just tell us specifically, especially for the people that may have never heard of Embark.
Amish Desai (11:26)
So MBARC was founded about a decade ago by two scientists, you know, and you know, veterinarians, and they traveled the globe. and and to their credits, they slept on you know, railway train stations and swabbing as many dogs as possible. And so I think what we are proud of is that MBARC is a leader in the dog DNA space. And so we really enable the pet port the pet parent to understand the dog's unique blueprint of the of the DNA. along with that, we gave it the breed composition.
Especially if it's a mixed breed dog. About two-thirds of the American dogs are mixed breed dogs. And so it really gives you that sort of understanding. I think it starts with first.
knowing who your dog is. you know, whether it's the breed, I think the bio, sort of like the biological markup. and so I think we start with that. we've sold over three million dogs to date and so we've really enabled pet owners to understand that and I think the next click is knowing a dog, understanding a dog. And I think where the evolution of the next chapter is, that's where we started, which is who your dog is. And I think where we are pivoting today is extending that and saying how do we create a lifetime, lifetime of small
Smarter care decisions enabling the pet owners to do that. And so we're building this intelligence platform that helps you understand your pet, giving you more insights and that you can action on, and ultimately build this sort of idea of care, which is what do I do with all this knowledge and insights? And how do I really be, how do I really enjoy the companionship with my pet over the years to come? And I think that is where the evolution is. So really it's about knowing a dog, understanding a dog, and then really about.
Helping them care for the dogs. And so being a market leader comes with a huge privilege. And I think the science, which is the heritage that we have, I think is the foundation bedrock of who we are. But we're extending that sphere beyond just science into this idea of, well, let's tailor, tailor it to the personalization aspect of the dog and the pet owner themselves as well.
Nic (13:31)
And so when you talk about knowing your dog, obviously you started from a genetic standpoint. Is it still very much focused on the genetics or do you enhance that and complement it with other information? Like what do you mean when you say know your dog?
Amish Desai (13:45)
Yeah, I think know your dog is I think we basically look at two hundred and seventy different elements of traits, you know, behavioural health traits. So obviously there are four hundred different breeds, you know, that are out there.
And so we basically can give you the like the breed profile. You know, what is you know what is the highest dominant sort of breed profile of your of your mixed breed dog? And as you know, every breed ages differently, evolves differently, lives a different lifestyle, lifespan rather. And so I think really that makeup, that biological makeup, that that is the first step. and I think that guides them into: well, what does understand mean? Understand then means is, you know, what are the you know high highlights.
Likelihoods of predisposition of health risks that we can tell you. So we look at a span of things, whether it's hip hip dysplasia to IVDD to mast cell tumor, is really using the power of genetics to guide those customers who say, here is another click, another step beyond just the breed profile around health and wellness that we can tell you how to how to think about the dog and be smart about it, be more preventative about it or more proactive about it. I think that data into
insight is where I think what says where our sweet spot is. And again, we are in the in the early days of adding more to that because ultimately where we want to get to is this idea of really personalized care. This this platform that really brings you in your palm of your hands through an app, really sort of everyday life, how do you sort of care for it?
Nic (15:18)
Yeah, that makes sense. And
and you know, just extrapolating from the human world of personalized or precision medicine, the the one of the benefits is obviously getting to know your person or your dog better. But the practical use of that is to kind of shift the care of that individual, in this case a dog, from a reactive form of healthcare, which is like, now we see a symptom or why is my dog acting differently or walking kind of weird, to
These are the this is the risk stratification for that dog. These are the things we should keep an eye out for. These are the things we might be able to prevent or mitigate or monitor. And so it really shifts you from being a reactive form of taking care of your pet to a more proactive form to say, okay, these are this is the spectrum of possible risks. And these are the things we can do right now to try to w navigate this journey in the healthiest way possible, optimizing for the health of that dog, right?
Amish Desai (16:16)
Absolutely. I think you know one example comes to mind is there was a pet parent who happens to rescue you know, and and happens to take the embark test and uncovers that the that the pet has you know is flagged for NAD, which is a fatal neurological you know, sort of condition. And the shelter had not identified anything around this lower back pain. And so I think that knowledge that that we can provide to the pet owner early into the cycle has really led to making more you know comparative.
Passionate decisions for the caring of the dog. Or in some instances, one pet parent really saw this dog in the shelter for almost 300 days and has a dog in our product that we have a feature called a relative finder. And so we help the pet owners find siblings of your pet, you know, you know, relative finders of, you know, and in this instance, he runs to the shelter because he sees a sibling of the
Pet that he has at home that has been in the shelter for 300 plus days, and then happens to bring it home. And so I think the power of using genetics, whether it's caring, as you were saying, being more proactive, or whether really sort of giving a home to a pet. These are like these are the sets like stories we hear every day that sort of fascinates me and excites me about, my goodness, the joy, the joyfulness of what the pet parenthood may look like. and I think these stories and giving
and sort of more value to these stories and carrying them forward. This is less about you know marketing a product. This is less about just the power of science. It's really about
I think how many folks we hear about the stress relief they get when they have a pet? the anxiety sort of you know the evolution of anxiety and how it sort of decouples that. So I think the the power of pet in a companionship, if we can be a part of that journey. And I think our goal is even in the short span of about two years, we have now access and have affiliations with over close to a thousand shelters. And so our goal is to go early into the cycle, connect with those pet parents and give them
and arm them with this sort of toolkit.
That helps them connect and but saying, okay, well, I don't know what to do with a puppy. I I've never had a puppy, or if I've had a puppy, it's been ages. And so, well, guess what? We can hold your hand right from the onset. We can we can tell you, maybe buy a kit, learn more about your, you know, your DNA and your breed composition, but it doesn't start that. That is not that just the starting point. How do we extend beyond that? And and and as you know, the first set of 18 months is like the like the adolescence age of us becoming a teenager overnight. And if we
can really be sort of that helpful hand, that guiding hand to those bed owners and that that 18-month cycle, then really they can have a wonderful sort of companionship ahead. So these are the these are the stories that really sort of fascinate me.
Nic (19:15)
No, it makes sense. I mean, having a dog is it's definitely a sense of companionship and that imprinting that happens in the very beginning is very strong. I've gone through it myself and and and there's this symbiotic relationship where in the very that dog does look to you for survival. You feed it, you walk it, it it that bond is just palpable. You know, you come home from work and it's it's literally the highlight of that dog's day.
And actually it's not even fair to say. I think the highlight of that dog's day is every single moment that it spends with you, which is why it's so invigorating and so energizing. And and at the same time, you know, you you that dog eventually takes on a role of protector as well, right? Then they protect the family, protect your home, they protect you from other dogs. And so it there is a very true connection that happens there. And having gone through that, when when a dog does get sick, it's devastating.
Because of like you said, a lot of times you know your gut tells you something's off, but it's so hard to get to the the truth of it. Sometimes you can take it to the vet and they can pinpoint it. A lot of times they just don't know. Or even sometimes, a lot of times, actually with dogs too, they know what the problem is, but they don't know what to do about it. you know, it's epilepsy, but we don't know what the cause is, or it's a cancer, we don't really know what to do for it. And so shedding any kind of light into that journey, I can definitely see.
as being something that would be not only useful but emotionally charging for people to understand just how do I take care of this child in a better way, this child that can't speak to me.
Amish Desai (20:51)
Absolutely. I think you know the other sort of trend that's emerging and you know, with this this whole thing of digital revolution and AI.
sort of transformation that's happening around us. think about the younger cohorts. They're not running off to the veterinarian. They don't have that deep disposable income. and so they they they're just using AI. And so I think what we are trying to figure out again and find the gap is where do we not provide just generic information, which could be dangerous. and how do we and we're not trying to replace the bet. But I think back to that younger cohort is they are more digitally savvy and native as we know. And so
the needs of what the pet parenthood looks like. There are many unknowns as you're highlighting. and and as you sit in these cramped spaces and you have a great Dane, but you're sitting in a two-bedroom condo or a flat, you know
That's a very different lifestyle and meaning and impact, the environmental impact to that pet, as opposed to having a bac backyard where your dogs are running around every day and whatnot. So these elements is what we are trying to mine for every day. We we not only collect data on the pet, clearly with genetics and phenotypic data and environmental and whatnot, but we also have a you know a vast amount of data on the pet ownership. What does the lifestyle look like? And I think understanding these patterns
On a on an ongoing basis. I think forging that relationship, I think is what pet parents really want. If you go to any marketplaces that I won't name here, but if you type in a supplement, you'll get probably 6,000 choices on one of these major marketplaces. And so you pause and you say to yourself as a pet parent, Well, which one do I get? What do I do? You know, what which one is right? Now I can go to a veterinarian and ask him or her, but that's gonna cost me time and money. So I think the idea in this day and age
Where attention is scarce, and time is limited and choices are too many, helping pet owners navigate that through every step of the way, I think is bare. I think the power of that sort of you know, consumerism and sort of this idea of pet ownership resides.
Nic (22:58)
No, I totally agree. And
you know, one of the things that interested me about this conversation was that Embark has really been spearheading a lot of this the the science behind pet health and and especially obviously canine health. and and the the data sets that you must have must be so deep at this point. I mean, a decade of collecting DNA from dogs of all breeds and mixtures and so on, and then joining that with phenotic pheno phenotypic data, behavioral data and so on.
Have over the years, w have you seen any striking patterns that discoveries that you've seen from the data that you're like, Wow, who knew? things that r listeners might be like, Wow, that's really interesting, what the data's telling us about dogs.
Amish Desai (23:43)
Yeah, I think I think there are many instances where I think the you know if you think about the dog population today, you know, generally in America, an average span of a dog, like average age of a dog is sitting at about six to seven years.
So the so I think and then the weight the the average weight you know composition of the of the of the pet sort of skewing a little bit towards heaviness. And so I think when you stop and you say to yourself, well, geez, what does that mean to you? you know, probably I would say at least two out of three dogs that we have in our database have a higher propensity of one of the variants spiking towards some predisposed risk potential.
And so you've been saying, I just adopted a pet from the shelter and it's a young puppy and everything's gonna be great. and you wait till that's eighth year or ninth year of you know owning the pet and you start finding things and symptoms and illnesses, and it's probably too late to account for it. So I think there are many elements like that. we now have a feature that we can identify mass cell tumor across all breeds, all 400 breeds. So I think that alone, and I think there are, there are many instances where you know
you know, that we can highlight to these pet owners. again, using multitude of genetic sort of imputational power.
To guide them. You know, obesity, allergies, I think is like is another one. We have a product, a feature where using the idea of polygenic risk scores, which is finding the sort of tiny sort of variables in your genomic sense and highlighting which ones can be highly predisposed risk on food or allergy. So allergies is one, and we're seeing a tremendous sort of tremendous response, not only because
Allergy season right now, but it's just generally around in and but again if you catch it early, why is your dog itching? or you know, licking paws, example. I think this is where that knowledge becomes you know immensely valuable. And then what do you do with it? Well, you either can you know give your dog an allergy supplement or you can give an allergy RX drug, you know, apacol and things like that. So I think that is where the evolution of this, and this can all happen within you know days. you don't have to wait to
Find those symptoms. Again, I think we are we are sort of pushing ourselves to leverage that data pool that we are very proud of, to constantly come up with what we're calling as a series of polygenic risk scores, obesity, weight, even seizures. The other thing that we've uncovered that we're really sort of immensely proud of, and we literally are doing a beta test as we talk.
Is linking genetics to behaviors. So if we think about what's top of mind for most pet owners today, obviously is the health and wellness, which is the number one concern. But right below that sits is this idea of behavior. Well, why is my dog behaving inside the house in one manner, outside the house one manner, or when they see people? and so what we've linked is we really have identified 15 sort of behavioral insights or behavior insights that are linked to genetics. and we're just sort of giving, arming our pet owners.
With that sort of data insight. And then, and again, we're not pausing right there because I think identifying a problem is step one. But then what do you do with it? And so what we've done is attached ourselves to another partner who has this online behavior training programs. And then over 150 different classes that you can sit at your laptop and you can say, Well, this is what I know what my dog's doing. Let me let me train and work with my pet. And then we've even gone one step beyond.
on and and what we're trialing right now is well if you don't want to take an online class like a more like a master class we can even bring on a real vet and have and help you train your vet in the moment and so I think the data extension is just the beginning and I think but I think to me we're not just mining data for data sake we really want to zoom into these solutions orientation idea of giving these pet owners you know variety of means to like you know care for the pets
Nic (28:00)
yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I've been in the precision medicine space for a while. And when I talk to doctors, they're all for it. But one of the things that comes back very clearly is don't bring me problems without solutions. If you're going to identify risks, is if you're gonna identify any preconditions and so on, I need you to also provide the solutions so that we can drive towards better outcomes versus giving me more homework.
So now I have to go and do my own homework to figure out what to do, or identifying things where there is no treatment or no cure or no mitigation strategy. Right. So identifying, like in the human case, identifying that somebody has a 12% risk of Alzheimer's. It's like, okay, great. Now what do I do with that? Right. both for the patient and for the doctor. And so I definitely relate to that. and you know, and I I I think the concept of precision medicine is also really striking for dogs because
They're also exposed to the elements much more than we are, right? I mean, they're like their bare paws are on the dirt. whatever is on there is gonna get on their feet. They lick, they chew, they drink the water all over the place. They're they have a much more evolved olfactory system. And so, you know, the way that maybe even pollution in the air affects their development. these are all things that obviously come into the whole concept of precision medicine, which is really looking across
All health determinants and the data that's available and thinking about how those how do all these different determinants factor into the health of this one dog or this one person. so when we think about animals, especially dogs, it's the genetics, but then how those genetics interact with their environments, with their behavior, with socioeconomics, and all those things bundle into that furry ball of love that you call your pet.
Amish Desai (29:51)
I love it. I love I think you know where you're going with it. You know, the last two years we started something leveraging the science of DNA methylation or epigenetics, as as you know that. And I think it's what is that? So it's really if if DNA and sort of you know genomics is the actual blueprint, how is that you know it helps you understand how that blueprint really is getting built around the real world? So it's the food that you eat or the activity you have or how much sleep or how much stress y the dog actually has.
And I think that that over the over the course of time is like that leaves a biological imprint or in a fingerprint. And so the epigenetics idea is to really capture that. So we were the first in the industry to launch a dog age test. And so if you were to take the DNA in a sample and we give you within a sort of a 12 month estimations sort of period, what is that calendar age of your pet? And so you may have happened to have adopted the pet from a shell.
And thinking it's a three-year-old dog, but in reality, the dog could be only 18 months old or maybe four years old. And so I think the power of science like this, as you're highlighting, whether it's in a preventative care, whether it's in a precision medicine, through the multi-omics idea of where you know genes and the idea of sort of genomics can be translated into proteins and metabolics and tissue and all of that. I think that is where the natural evolution of the industry is going. And I think that's where we
Want to be partnering with those sort of you know houses to help sort of bring the scare solutions forward. You know, so I think it's one spectrum for me is we we want to help you with the you know more of the proactive in a more of the sort of idea of you know help sort of you know prevent it with this polygenic risk scores and you know behavioral insights, but then you extend into epigenetics. And I think epigenetics is I think there's a lot of human, I think back in the human space is a lot of sort of attention given to longevity these days. I think the same is sort of an
transcending into into the pet sector and there's a lot of capital infusion a lot of innovation coming there and the idea of whether it's a pill that is coming out shortly that's FDA approved to again help you treat a certain sort of gene invariant to help you like sort of slow down the age. But I think we we believe that I think where MBARC can play a role is like really help you on the sort of leverage the capital power of the scientific power of epigenetics and sort of help you understand
Really at an organ level, functional level, what's happening within the dog's sort of health system. And so I think there's a lot of collaboration ideas that we've been sort of, you know, sort of ideating on because we are the front runners in this in this field of epigenetics. I think we can build it forward. But I think it's sort of fascinating how how science along with AI and all of that can come together. And I I believe where the industry is going is more of that. If you like even if you step back, as we talked about.
Adoption, I think, as well. You know, food and all the essentials are clearly the bread and butter for most companies in the sector. No, like I mean, there's no doubt there. But if you step back the last couple of decades, Nick, what has been again very sort of fascinating is the idea of services, grooming, walking, supplements, you know, things like that. That again, it's like just like how you how you would, you know, do with your baby and your child, same logic.
has sort of transformed, is this, you know, sort of massively transformational for this industry. And that sector, those those services are growing at like 2x rate.
And so I think what's happening is as we talk about deferral marriages and whatnot, adoption has been steady, but for caring of the pet, the pet parent doesn't have the time in some in most cases. So they're relying for these outside services to come and care. And so I think it's sort of these trends that we are watching very intimately is also shaping where does embark play? Where can we kind of fill in those gaps like you know for those pet parents? And so generally that's sort of
Nic (34:04)
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, as we think about technology, you mentioned AI. Obviously, every field is being affected by AI. And one thing that occurred to me as we're talking a lot about companionship with animals, is I've read articles about people kind of playing with the idea right now, but is some people theorizing that in the future a lot of people will get companionship from bots or AI agents and so on, right? And
You know, as I think about it, I'm like, okay, on the one hand, it makes sense because they can simulate or replicate human interaction. On the other hand, there's a reciprocity that comes with a pet, which is it's not just being there. You you get something back from the dog in in you also give into the dog, which as you give, it it increases the stakes and your sense of being a part of this journey as well, that I don't think necessarily AI can replicate.
even in you know in in Fortune five hundred companies and large corporations, we are starting to understand very clearly where AI can benefit in and speeding up things and automating things, but it doesn't replace trust. It doesn't replace the human interaction that goes into making decisions, all those dynamics that are part of the fabric of society. It it can't replicate that, at least not yet.
so when you think about these trends and you think about the massive disruption of AI, I think AI is, I'm guessing, a huge factor into your innovation because what you do fundamentally, you're in the healthcare space, right? I it's like in healthcare is a data space. It's all about how you use this genetic information and this phenotypic information and so on. So on that side, AI is massively useful for wrapping your hands around all this multiomic data and trying to make sense of it. On the other hand, where do you see
the technology converging with biology and then where this might take pet health, dog health in the future, if you really think big picture.
Amish Desai (36:03)
Yeah, I think what's what I think the I think what we envision is in this particularly in this AI space is
I think the pet parent is going to be looking for this sort of personalized sort of insights and care, sort of knowledge. I think generic information is going to be more easily available. AI can spit out if you tell the breed and you tell the age, probably AI will give you a couple of data points. And I think where we are looking in the future is the idea of telemedicine, the idea of sort of you know, really taking a step back and saying, well, you know, if I can.
Upload my results for my vet visits, if I can take my genetic data, if I can take my other sort of multiomic data and feed it into AI, can it spit out a personalized care plan? And then can I really walk it every day? So I think that that is not far-fetched of an idea because I think the uptake of data is there. We are actually leveraging AI tremendously across the organization for sure, but really what we call
Our intelligence engine. And so I think what we're really doing is unlike marketplaces where we're just throwing out choices of customers to go buy some things. I think our our strategy, Sarab, is really rooted into the idea of context and content. So we want to arm you. When we say we want to you know your dog, you understand your dog, we're using AI to bring the relevant content tailored to that breed and your lifestyle, first and foremost. So as you understand your dog, here's what you should understand, what it means.
With that sort of content. And then the second part in our sort of strategy using AI is this idea of in a curated commerce. So we are not in the business of just sort of offering you, you know, sort of these products and services because it's the right thing to do and load you up with 80,000 SKUs. What we're really trying to figure out is what are the relevant SKUs again, using AI and knowing your data and your lifestyle and giving you those recommendations at the right moment. Whether you have a triggered occasion, something happened.
Or or you send something giving you that information. And I think the and then the power of AI, which I think we are still needing to unlock it, is I believe, and that's what really motivates me every day, is this idea of community. And so AI is no doubt very much essential part of what we do today. But we are turning on these engines every step of the way to sort of bring more context, bring more curated commerce, bring more content in a very rapid cycle. And I think the other thing we've also
sort of benefited with AI is our experiment our experimentation cycles are just completely collapsed. So I think and as you know in in the industry, I mean all our software engineers are just sort of QAing it every day, whatever we do. And really the cycle of concept to market you know is rapidly evolving. So I think we can bring more of real-time data, real-time data I think is where I think the pet owner will benefit from. I would say in the near term. Yeah.
Nic (39:10)
Yeah, you know, and i speaking as a former dog owner and then understanding what people are doing with with AI, I think a killer app or feature would be if if you could use AI to help translate what dogs are saying to you. We talked before about not knowing what your dog is saying, and I know that they're doing experiments and trying to figure out the the sounds and communication patterns that whales and dolphins
and other animals do they're trying to use AI to see can they find the pattern to say, like, can we translate what they're saying? and you know, because they are, they communicate with each other, so it's got to be a pattern, it's not random. I'm guessing dogs are the same way. So is it possible to use an AI not only to find general patterns, but then to train it on your dog specifically? So when your dog barks in one way or behaves in a different way,
They can start giving you some insight into like specifically this dog is saying it's hungry or it's hot or be careful because there's somebody in the house.
Amish Desai (40:11)
Absolutely. I think we've already been sort of trialing what we call as you know computer visioning using AI. but we haven't released it you know commercially for because we're still in the trial phase. But you could take a picture of the poop as you're walking. you can upload it and we can tell you a lot more about that. you can take a picture of the dog and we can tell you what the state of the dog is. I mean there's just you know immense such such variations of what AI can do for you. We are sitting on the largest sort of
sort of you know library of you know dog or you know canine images you know and so I think we are leveraging this sort of all these asset pools that we have again and using the AI engines to like fire it up and say you know we want to arm you but I think we have to be careful because as you know it's still in the early days there's a lot of hallucination and I think we don't want to compromise our scientific fidelity just because it's a cool thing to have AI. So I think but you're
Right, I think I think I think the systems are gonna get much more sophisticated very shortly. and I think this idea of you can really upload a picture or take a video of your dog, you know, even think about even with you know wearables. If you have a dog collar, most of the dog collar companies that we've seen are generally GPS-centric sort of you know plays.
But here is where I think data becomes powerful. They are tracking information for the dogs at a breed level. They know what the breed of the dog is. If it's a mixed breed, they can take the DNA test, they can get the breed composition from MBAR clearly. But then as they sort of see the dog do things everyday life,
They, the actual collar companies or whatever the actual companies are, they're tracking data. They have data at a breed level. Imagine you infuse that with our genetic data. So now you get even more richness of like a compounding value of that data pool. Second, if you think about industry or the insurance industry, the insurance industry for pets, mainly for dogs and cats, or for dogs in especially, is very underpenetrated in this country today. And I think it's seeing a nice healthy uptick.
But again, from an underwriting standpoint, you know, imagine if the data that we sit on and other things like that we can, you know, help these insurance companies factor that into the actual science and help underwrite you know differently.
the vastness of what that can do for underwriting and and ensuring and giving again health and wellness coverage options to those pet owners is huge. So I think these are the like the frontiers where I think embarks sort of you know is looking to sort of partner with leveraging the power of AI, leveraging the power of data. But it's sort of mind-boggling at the speed at which it's moving. And and even our own modeling or you know, for example the idea of computer visioning, in a matter of three months, we've like literally
exponentially sort of, you know, made it much more stronger and much more accurate. So I think it's sort of these are the things that I see that will be I think as we have the app now, we are using the app to really bring more, more things to life there. So
Nic (43:18)
That's interesting. Yeah, and I agree with you. You have to stick to the science because otherwise you don't want to fall into the pseudoscience realm. And there's a lot of that on the human side, people trying to use genetics to try to figure out what your best nutritional you know, strategy should be, or what kind of exercises, or any number of things, which it still falls in the pseudoscience space. It's not something that card carrying scientists would necessarily do. At some point, I do believe that the science will be there. I just don't think we have enough data.
And so I I do applaud you for sticking to that. How how have veterinarians been using this data, if at all? Is it mostly focused on the consumer side and that's your main focus? Or are are people taking this information to veterinarians to try to do something with it?
Amish Desai (44:02)
Yeah, I think I think the journey that if you happen to, you know, get an embark it, you know, and you and you get the results, I think, you know, most you know people would take it to a veterinarian today and say, help me understand those results. And so we are simplifying I think the overall you know digestion of what what the actual results mean. But the veterinarian, you know, and we have you know veterinarians in our in you know on our team and even they'll tell you they don't they're not trained for guiding diet recommendations. They're not trained to tell you what supplements to take.
And so if you look at the macro, if you zoom out a little bit at the industry, you know, veterinarians generally less and less people are signing up to be veterinarians, which is unfortunate to see. I think there has been a very significant decline over the last decade of number of people or number of visits to a veterinarian, and the cost has gone up. And so, which has been a sort of a barrier or a headwind for the industry, where you know, not too not too many people.
are going to veterinarians and so I think the vets have I think I don't think that the genetic information is easily sort of you know for them to stamp it and help them you know sort of in a certified is hard. But I think I can see where a day may come where
if the if the pet owner takes this sort of all this information we just talked about, genetics, multiomics, and then goes to the vet and says, now help me, how do I, you know, take this care plan that AI has generated? But veterinarians generally are seeing a little bit of pain point.
today are they gonna fade away? No. I think they're still gonna be the trusted advice like advisory source. but unfortunately the headwinds are you know against them where they are seeing a challenge. and you know telemedicine has come up you know televet has come up where we at Embark can offer you a 247 white glove access to a a vet literally and you can call them at any hour at the 11 p.m hour that I talk about often and and you can just connect with them. So you don't need to go push your you know take a dog
In the backseat and rush to a like a like a vet clinic. And I think to me, that evolution of industry is how do you then solve it?
you know in in in that immediate moment. I think there's also a lot of consolidation happening in the thing in the veterinarian space with you know private equity coming together. So the industry is going through a transformation. I see that it's over time is going to get some some kind of dilution there. And I think you know the idea of you know televet will take off more and more. I think we've seen that sort of trade off happening over time.
but I think what I see is this idea of where you were going, which was the idea of multi-omics and epigenetics. I think those are the two things that I see tremendously and all the knowledge from the human side is is is quickly rapidly evolving into this space.
Nic (46:56)
Yeah. No, I it's it's definitely the area that excites me on the human health front. And so I can only imagine on the in the dog health front. And and and so much of from again personal experience when when my dogs got sick, the the medicines that we would subject them to were kind of off labeled usage from human medications as well, right? and so I I definitely see that trend going in that direction.
Now, the pattern that we've been talking about when it comes to this growth and adoption of animals and and this is starting to really focus on the pet health and pelt pet wellness, are we talking mainly US or is this like a global trend that you're seeing, or is it in certain parts like more western versus eastern? Is there a pattern to that or do you see it globally?
Amish Desai (47:44)
I think it's fairly globally. I think as you were highlighting South Korea, I think you're absolutely spot on that I think pets are c essentially replacing, you know, babies and humans. but I think these patterns are more global for sure. you know, just just to pick India as a country as an example, I was home you know, visiting my mother and I go for an early morning walk.
And I saw more dog walkers, you know, walking probably eight or nine dogs. and I think every time I go there I see more and more of that. And so the adoption, the lifestyle, I think the need for food and healthy food and fresh food, the idea of services. I mean, these are global patterns that we are seeing. and I think it's ex it's exciting in a way. Australia is very heavy, France, as we know, a little bit more skewed to feline, again, all these countries are
very much sort of seeing it, including Japan as well. So I think, you know, we are obviously a US centric you know company, but I think when I look at the global landscape, it's just is is phenomenal how that rate of you know companionship is evolving quickly for the pets. And I think what it tells you is that because we're all mammals, humans and you know pets, even from a scientific research standpoint, you know, some of the big pharmaceutical houses will often tap into us for any type of
Clinical trial. And so we're using again data in multitude of sort of ways to harness and bring whether it's impacting us as humans or impacting pets as well. But the global sort of phenomenon on pet care is just sort of exciting as well. And sort of gives you that bullishness. You know, there is a belief that by 2030 this will be a close to a 200 billion dollar market, just in the US alone. And so that just gives you an idea that it was almost 90 billion during
And so just the what what the what the exponential growth expectations are alone gives you an idea of what the what the upside is if you're part of it.
Nic (49:50)
That's incredible. And well, you know, Amish, as as we're wrapping up here, you've been obviously a part of so many different industries and on the consumer side, on the commercial side, on the retail side, and now on the on the pet health, I would call precision medicine fronts. so if you you know could somehow project forward, you know, fast forward into a place in the future, and I know you're nowhere close to being done. So this is like things that you've accomplished, but things that you
are trying to accomplish still. But if you could project forward five, ten, whatever many years in the future, where you could sit down and reflect back on your body of work, and think about the best case scenario, what what would sense of accomplishment, what what do you think you would have accomplished that would give you the most, the deepest sense of fulfillment and pride as you would look back?
Amish Desai (50:43)
I think there are two things that really sort of you know, if I were to look back and obviously there's a lot of work that is unfinished for me, but if I were to fast forward, I think the idea of compounding of the human potential is what excites me. So I think the first and foremost is
being in the leadership role that you get to, you know, work with so many smart folks every day is finding people who you've uncovered has more of a potential. Believing in them early in the cycle and then seeing them nurture and grow and do well.
And so if I look back and saying, I love to be able to see that people that who wouldn't have thought for themselves that have actually done well over the years. So that is something that I look forward to. But back to the pet, the pet parenthood, I love to have a community that if I look back and over call it five years from now or ten years from now, that we've stood up this community of pet owners that truly have found a place where they can hang out. this is not a social media website that I'm envisioning. But
Place where intelligence is shared, you know, the voice is heard, they learn from each other, they can talk about, they can meet and they can connect. Because I think with this AI, AI revolution that we see as one thing is obviously becoming more and more common, this yearning for human connection and not feeling isolated, I think is going to become more evidently needed. And so I think this sort of community, if MR can sort of build and stand up and
and give a place and a home to these pet owners. and really if they can enjoy a longer life and longer joyfulness with these, you know, companions, I think that's that's the place that would make me very happy.
Nic (52:25)
I I
definitely can identify with that and it it hits personally because I've gone through that cycle many times. But with that, Amish, it's been such a pleasure. You know, we've been building up to this for a while. It definitely did not let down. thank you so much for being under Natural Selection and I look forward to continuing this conversation over a whiskey or something.
Amish Desai (52:43)
Thank you for having me, Nick. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
