Longing for Belonging: Lifestyle Hospitality • Practice Hospitality / Bashar Wali
Longing for Belonging
What makes an experience unforgettable?
In this episode of UnNatural Selection, Nic sits down with hospitality entrepreneur and industry provocateur Bashar Wali to explore why the future of hospitality — and perhaps business itself — depends less on luxury and more on human connection.
From “Longing for Belonging” to frictionless technology, Bashar explains why most companies misunderstand loyalty, why convenience is replacing money as the world’s most valuable commodity, and how hospitality can teach every industry about trust, emotion, and customer experience.
The conversation explores:
Why memorable beats luxurious
How Airbnb forced hotels to evolve
The psychology of belonging and being “seen”
Why technology should remove friction, not humanity
AI, hyper-personalization, and the future of hospitality
What businesses across every industry can learn from great hotels
This episode is a masterclass in human-centered innovation, emotional loyalty, and designing experiences people never forget.
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Nic (00:00)
Bashar, welcome to UnNatural Selection. Thank you for being here.
Bashar (00:02)
Thanks for having me, delighted to be here.
Nic (00:04)
I'm eager to learn more about this lifestyle hospitality space. Obviously, we're all familiar with hospitality, but you take a very unique approach, not only in the way that you look at this industry, but from my understanding also in the way that you engage with it. It sounds like you travel quite a bit. You never stay in one hotel more than one night at a time. But before we get there, I just want to start with a signature question that gives you the opportunity to tell us in your own words why you do what you do and what motivates you.
So Bashar, can you let us know what need or impact drives your work?
Bashar (00:40)
I am exceedingly motivated by human connections. I sort of try to live the Bourdain lifestyle, I call it. I'm not super religious and if I were to pick a prophet, Bourdain would be high on the ranking. ⁓ We all get caught up in things and accomplishments and work and all of that. And we forget that at the end of the day, this conversation is probably the highlight of my day. Something that has no transactional.
back to it, it really is two humans sitting around the proverbial fire as it were to have a conversation. And this industry gives me a great venue to do that because you're seeing new people every day between employees and guests and patrons, et cetera. It's such a great way to make those connections and really feel human again in a world that is swipe right, swipe left, immediate gratification, having a moment and a respite in your day and hope.
hotels and restaurants and bars and coffee shops accomplish a lot of those things. So that's really what drives me is the human connections that I make rather than sitting at a desk and pushing paper.
Nic (01:43)
And so it's that human element, the intimacy that comes with engaging with people and learning from them and having these conversations. And for those that are less familiar with your specific specialty, if you will, can you tell us a little bit about what lifestyle hospitality means in practice?
Bashar (02:03)
A lot of those terminologies have become empty because everybody uses them. Being an erotic traveler, and we can touch on that in a minute, I've sort of come to the conclusion that there's really only two kinds of hotels, memorable or forgettable. I tell people, I'd like to say I'm in the memorable hotel space where you're not coming for a commodity, because hotels at the end of the day really are a commodity. You need a bed and a shower and I provide you a bed and a shower. I'm not in that business. There's lots of people that do that well.
I'm in the business of you come sure you get your bed in your shower, but you leave with a feeling that you have to go home and say, honey, you can't believe this place I stayed at or this experience I've had. So I'm in the into memorable hospitality, I call it and lifestyle to use that term just to stay, stay with the industry terminology to me means more than a commodity and how, whatever that means to you and however you define that it's up to you how you perceive it. But that's kind of the space that I play it.
Nic (03:01)
That makes sense. And if I can borrow from maybe some of the things that you've said before, I believe you also call it like longing for belonging, right? It's a sense of belonging, of being there. So it's not, it's less of, okay, I'm going to go to one of Bashar's hotels because I need a place to stay and I'm going to be treated like a guest in a foreign place. It's more like I'm actually going to feel at
Bashar (03:23)
I've actually trademarked that use of that sentence in hospitality, longing for belonging, with the following idea. We are all lost species. We are packed animals. We were meant to be together and we've become so separated. And if you think about it, back in the day, you would belong to a church. That's waning off. You would belong to a political party. That's waning off. You leave home for college. You're likely not going back because you're chasing your career and your dreams.
So you're out there in the world wandering and trying to find your people. And my premise is that even for one night, if I make you feel that we are your people, that's what's going to make that experience memorable. And that's what's going to create loyalty with you. Not me handing you points to come back, but me handing you the sense that you belong, you've arrived. Actually often from your neck of the woods use the example of cheers. And I say, cheers, the TV show never bragged about, we're the best, we're the most award-winning, we have the biggest wine list, blah, blah, blah, blah. They said where everyone knows your name.
Because if I know your name, you belong. And if you belong, I am your tribe. I am your pact. I'm going to protect you and look after you. And that's, think, the nuance that's now missing in the commodity offering, because they don't think about that part. They'd like to think they do by throwing things at you. It's not things, it's feelings. And those, for the time being, are exclusive to, I won't say humans, I'll say mammals. A dog, if I had a dolphin in the lobby welcoming you every day, you'd come back to me. You'd be totally loyal to me. Similarly with a dog.
So I'd say mammals at large give you that feeling of sense of belonging and being part of something bigger than you are. And I know it sounds romantic, it's a hotel at end of the day, sure. But if it's just a hotel, I'm dead, I'm a commodity. And people buy commodity based on price and location and convenience. They don't buy it based on emotion. And if that's the case, I'm dead and I have no way to compete with anyone because I've lost the edge.
Nic (05:15)
No, it doesn't sound like you're overly romanticizing at all because to give you a very mundane example of how this hits me personally, ⁓ my mechanic here in Boston, I've been going to the same mechanic for easily 20 years. And the reason why it's more than just this, but would really hook me is the first time I went there, you obviously introduce yourself. From that point on, he always knew my name, always.
And I'm thinking to myself, like, this is a mechanic shop. Like, why do you care? And how the hell do you remember my name among the, you you've got a lobby full of people coming here and clearly because he's very popular, because the guy just he owns the place. He knows everybody and he's never, ever forgotten my name.
Bashar (06:00)
Amazing. By the way, people ask me why I got into this business and I use this quote. I grew up in the Middle East and we have this great quote that I will say on stage. I'll say, I'm about to give you a master's degree in hospitality from Cornell that would normally have cost you including undergrad, 700 grand. You're getting it for free. Here's hospitality for you. When a stranger shows up at your door, feed them for three days before you ask who they are, where they're from or where they're going to. Because by then they'll either have the strength to answer
or you'll be such good friends, it won't matter. And I literally dropped the microphone and said, our industry is uber simple, but we've gone away from that, which is a feeling to more art and more design and more sense and more music and more shock and awe, forgetting the part that matters, which this idea that again, longing for belonging, I've got you, you're here, you belong here, I'm your tribe. That's really, and again, back to Bourdain, Bourdain never chased Michelin stars.
is the best experiences, most memorable experiences for me watching Bourdain on TV was sitting on the floor in some living room in Vietnam, eating probably not great food with amazing people that make the food so great. And I think that's really the nuance here. And interestingly enough, I say this concept, to your point, applies to anything. The mechanic, the doctor, the dentist, like it could be the most mundane of tasks. But if you, an ⁓ entrepreneur or a professional,
If you understand that that's what's going to win you loyalty every time, listen, your product has to be good enough, your service has to be good enough, that's the price of admission. But beyond that, that to me is the advantage that will win you and will make you garner more than your competitor by remembering your name, by being hospitable and attending to you in your
Nic (07:46)
Yeah, that makes total sense. I see that. So I've interviewed people from writer for Seinfeld and Curb Your Enthusiasm, all the way to a playologist that design theme parks. And there is a common theme there around communal sharing and human bonds. Right. I mean, like the Seinfeld episode, I interviewed the writer there. We were talking about
how much society has changed because shows used to draw you as a family. It would come out on Thursday nights at 9 p.m. or whatever on Sunday nights and that was a thing that almost reset you. You guys all got together, no matter what happened during the week, you just all came around that same thing and then it's like the following morning, you start over again. And in playology too is a lot of element in using psychology and design to bring people together and bring adults down to the level of like.
the children so you know you see eye to eye and all kinds of things and I feel like society with COVID had something to do with that but the virtual world we spend so much time in front of screens and everything is so transactional and everything is streamed and then you binge watch you know there's not that same sense. I feel like a lot of this stuff has made things more convenient but it's just stripped away from the humanity that made us into a society.
Bashar (09:11)
The romance, ceremony of it, like to your point that showed like there was a ceremony around it. It was nothing fancy or formal, but this ceremonial thing of sitting together in the living room, watching the TV show together, getting the snacks together. There's also this idea again that during the pandemic, because we're forced to separate, there was this urge that we all wanted to be together alone.
Like I didn't want to be locked up in a room. I was happy to sit in a room six feet away from you, never say a word to you. But the presence of another human in the same room creates that warmth feeling, right? Not figurative, not literal. And I tell people like lobbies, hotel lobbies are a great example. When I travel, like I don't want to hang out in my room. I used to have to hang out in my room tied to my desk because I had to plug my phone in and do all that thing. Well, now I can be in the lobby and I'll go sit next to you.
I don't necessarily want to talk to you. I don't want to engage with you. I don't want to pick you up. I don't want to do anything. I just want to be in the presence of other people. And look, I go very Darwinian this way. We are packed animals. We need each other to feel safe. So sitting next to you in the lobby, never saying a word to you, feels far better than sitting in the room alone with no one or in the lobby alone with no one. So I think again, to your point, we've lost that art because we've become so transactional and convenience overrides everything.
You're watching today, by the way, I talking to someone earlier about in New York City, there's now a ⁓ backgammon cafe. Mahjong is having a moment, a resurgence. So all of a sudden, we're putting our phones away and we're saying, you know what, for an hour, the world can burn down for all I care on my phone. Let's play some Mahjong. Let's play some backgammon. Let's actually have a conversation.
Nic (10:55)
Yeah, it's nice to see obviously things go to extremes and then they balance out eventually with this kind of like back and forth ping-pong game. I hope these things do start having a resurgence. Like you said, ⁓ whether it's Mahjong or other things, because I have children as you do, and I just think about the world that they're going to be living in and the sense of fulfillment that they're going to have and being in. I don't want them to just be like,
really successful and know how to work with AI or whatever it is that they're going to do, that doesn't feel like a very full life unless they have the rest of what we grew up with, which is basically that human connection and those traditions that make society what it is.
Bashar (11:38)
And look, I don't want to be that guy, not a boomer, but I don't want someone to say, okay, boomer, I do not want to resist change. And here's the analogy I use. Back in the day, the way we communicated is we grunted back and forth to each other, right? Then we created language. I am not opposed to the notion that maybe electronic communication is us as humans evolving. I just don't want to do it in a dark room alone. Back to my earlier example, I may sit next to you in the lobby and never say a word to you and talk to you on Snapchat. Fine.
but being in the room together because otherwise at some point we can literally lie in bed, never leave our beds and do everything we need to do and be a vegetable essentially. Is that connected to a machine? Figuratively speaking, is that what we want to do? That seems like a miserable world that I want to live in, but I'm not opposed to technology and evolution in different ways.
Nic (12:26)
That makes sense. So then if we turn to your definition of innovation, I'm hearing trends. think part of it is what makes it for a better human experience. ⁓ What would be when you look at a new hotel that you're going to build or even a current hotel that you want to obviously like once you do one thing and you've been doing it for a few years, eventually you've got to change things to stay fresh and new. So when you think about innovating in the hospitality, in the lifestyle hospitality space, what
⁓ What filter do you have on or how do you approach it? What are the do you look for key elements? Is it new every single time? Like what's your thinking when it comes to like I want to make this truly unique and belonging human experience. What does that mean?
Bashar (13:10)
So you touched earlier on my neurotic travel. Let's dive into that for a minute, because I think maybe I'll induce some wanderlust in your listeners. So I travel a lot. A lot of people travel a lot. I traveled, know. I spent 30 days sitting in an airplane seat last year. 18 countries, 280,000 miles. Lots of people travel more than me. That's amateur by comparison. But I've never met anyone dumb enough. And I'm pretty sure if I cared enough to prove it, I probably hoard a record of some kind.
So if I'm in New York City for three nights, I move three times, never the same hotel twice. And I do this across the globe. I've kept track in New York City just because it's easy. Last week I stayed in my 275th hotel in Manhattan. I mean, that is some commitment as you can imagine. So I've seen it all. There's lots, no, no, there's lots as you can imagine. But the point is like, if I stay at a Sheraton, don't need to stay at every Sheraton. Oh, sure. Yeah.
Nic (14:01)
How many hotels are in Manhattan?
Bashar (14:10)
And I usually will chase that independence and the lifestyle. But once you go through those, now I go through the brands and kind of be like Sheraton check, Hilton check, Hampton and check. And I'll do ultra luxury to hostile and everything in between. Like this is not a bougie kind of thing. I'll literally do it across the spectrum because it is how I learn. So to me, innovation has to include two words in it every single time. It has to be effortless and intentional because sometimes people paint innovation.
in a brush that becomes an obstacle in my way, or it becomes more focused on shock and awe rather than the actual value of it. And it can give you lots of examples of those things. Like think about this, and innovation is a big word to use, just like disruption. I hate using those words. Our industry isn't really very innovative. Like Airbnb was an innovator and a disruptor. That was a movement. Outside of Airbnb for our industry and the invention of the internet and now AI, like those were the three major disruptive innovative things.
Outside of that, to self-deprecate a little bit. I'm selling you a bed and a shower. Like it's not rocket science, right? So I don't love using the word innovation, but like, you know, there's this for a moment in time, desk in the room, no desk in the room, desk in the room, no desk in the room. We talked earlier about being tethered to it. I no longer have to. So now we don't need the desk in the room. So we took desks out of the room. But now in this sort of society where people are digital nomads working, you know, you're in Barcelona and now you have a 4 a.m. wake call.
with the US, Barcelona time, you don't want to get dressed and go to the lobby. Where do you do it in your room? Lying in bed. So we sometimes don't think through some of the things that we do. We do it too quickly and we don't think about the intentionality of the offering and the thoughtfulness of the offering. Some of the things that we could do today that we don't do. I am titanium elite on Marriott, the top status. I've traveled to hundreds of Marriott across the globe. I use this example. They all do the same thing. I use this example often.
You know, they say 20 % of your customers give you 80 % of your business. I like my room, morgue temperature year round, 64 degrees. I don't care if I'm in Antarctica, I want my room 64 degrees. You would think once ever someone would press a button from their desk to change the temperature in my room and take credit for it. Never once. You think about that, like what innovation is that? It's not innovation. And now obviously you can automate it and do all those things. Never happens once. What I'm looking at now as innovation, because the technology has enabled us to do,
I am looking for ways to use technology to remove the friction out of our transaction, because we still have a transaction, to then allow our transaction to become a connection and less of a transaction. Sign here, initial there, do this, scan the key, here's the key, scan it in the elevator. What's around the corner, my phone is in my pocket. First of all, you should know where I am arriving to your hotel and how far I am and be prepared for me.
When I walk up to you, should have all my information, all my credit card, all this stuff. And by being present in your hotel, you should have secured the fact that my payment is there with you. I should go up in the elevator and not have to touch anything or do anything. When I walk down the hallway, the art on the wall should change to the art I like, because you should know what art I like. The scent that you spray out of the ceiling in the machine should be the scent I like, because you know what scent I like. The lighting level, the TV channel, the temperature in the room, all that stuff is literally around the corner.
And all that does is it removes friction. My key work, my key didn't work. I turned the TV on, it didn't work. I had to drop my temperature, the thermostat is locked and on and on and on and on. I think the future of luxury is ultra customization. know, Rich Carlson back in the day would talk about ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. It's like, no, no, no, no, I don't want all that. Just get me what I want. What I want it back to our earlier meeting gratification, high quality. Don't fight me every step of the way. It's interesting.
I often tell people I am in the retail business because if I say I'm in the hospitality business, I'm a fool because I have perishable inventory. That room in my hotel tonight, if I don't sell it tonight, I can't sell it tomorrow because that room on February 5th is only available one time on February 5th, 2025 as opposed to having a t-shirt, if that t-shirt today, can sell it tomorrow. I can sell it the next day. So I tell people I am in the retail industry.
Yet I fight you every step of the way as you're trying to buy from me. I use this other silly example back to lack of innovation. I'm on your website total and I'm trying to book my reservations and by step 75, I'm in the zip code field. First of all, why do you even want my zip code? Like, that a thing anymore? And you're now forcing me to change my keyboard from alphanumeric shame on you. I honestly look at retail for innovation because they were at the verge of death and had to reinvent themselves. I mean, think about Instagram now. I see a shirt.
I click two buttons and literally two days later, the shirt is at my door. So they've figured out how to get in my head, how to listen to me, serve me up the content that I want. We're behind. But to summarize innovation to me, what innovation to me is the removal of friction to allow this respite, this experience, this connection, this belonging to happen magically without the interruption of things that technology should be doing. Another really simple example, New York City. I order a towel.
you know, by the way, using technology, text or WhatsApp or whatever, a little R2D2 shows up at my door with a towel in it. Perfect. I don't need to engage with anyone. I'm half dressed. Fine. That towel is fine. But if I go downstairs and I want to talk to you about, what's around town? What should I go eat? Sure. can ask Chachie PT and I'll probably do a better job than you, but who better to ask than another human who's experienced that themselves. So I feel like that's where they, I am not anti-technology or innovation. I want to use it to remove friction.
Nic (19:50)
Yeah, that makes total sense. I remember talking to a former CEO of 7-Eleven and he would describe it more as convenience, trying to deliver as much convenience. Effortless. Yeah, exactly. And removing the friction. And from my mind, my background is the health care, but also the technology side. I'm a software developer, computer scientist. And as you were describing this, I was thinking about the iPhone, right? It's come a long way, but I remember what made it so unique in the beginning was
it would remove friction and it would be an intuitive user experience because it would sometimes do for you things that were the natural next thing. Like it wouldn't force me to click two buttons to get to the next thing. It just knew that that was a thing. So I just did it. And when they first started doing that, it was just so pleasant and surprising to be like, wow, how did this phone do that? That's so like it eliminated half the keystrokes. And and it sounds to me like you're taking that same kind of
user-centric software design approach to customizing the real-life hospitality experience.
Bashar (20:55)
Yes. And our most valuable commodity, we finally figured out, isn't money, it's time. So the more of time, there's a great meme that says, if you've wasted 10 minutes of my time, eight minutes is my fault, because I let you, right? So if we can use technology to save us time, even if I had nothing to do with that time except B, it's going to be a welcome thing from you.
I mean, you think about like, by the way, one of the quotes for the management company I own, I love this quote that I've trademarked is, can take your baggage, anyone can take your luggage, I'm sorry. Anyone can take your luggage, we handle your baggage. So this idea that come with all your worries and we got you like that's what a hotel should do, right? That's what a restaurant should do. Like if I have to Google your ingredients, you failed miserably. Like you're trying too hard, right?
If I need my flashlight to read your menu, you failed miserably. Like your lighting should be thoughtful enough to allow people to do. If it's too loud and I can't have a conversation with you, you failed miserably. But we all follow these trends and copy and paste. And what we don't do is our actions are not intentional and our process is not thoughtful and making things effortless to like, like make the lighting effortless. Doesn't mean stadium lighting. You still need to set the mood. You still need to do all of that stuff, but think about the end user and we don't, right?
We're all chasing the fleeting Instagrammable moment without regards to any of the practical things. And to your earlier comment, the pendulum is swinging pack. People literally are revolting against all this nonsense.
Nic (22:27)
That makes sense. It's, ⁓ you know, the thing with making something truly intuitive and seamless is that the end product comes across as very, very simple, and yet it's really, really hard to do.
Bashar (22:42)
Simple
is the hardest thing to do. Simple is
Nic (22:46)
So
easy to overthink things. so, know, but maybe the way to start is like you said, right? If a hotel chain knows that you like your temperature at 64, just start with that because that's a mindset. As soon as like the people working at the hotel is like, oh, you know what? Bashar likes it at 64. Now they're thinking along those lines like, well, OK, I what I do next thing that I can do. Right. But if you don't start, then it becomes very transaction, which is like, OK, let's just get Bashar in and out because it's all about throughput.
Bashar (23:13)
I just wrote a piece on LinkedIn that's going bananas this week about this notion that someone decided it was innovative to remove the shower door and have just a half sheet of glass. I am here to tell you people from experience, I've paid my dues. It doesn't work. I'm freezing my butt off. Water is going everywhere. It does not work. And literally the amount of comments, engagement I'm getting about people like, my God, thank God somebody finally said it. So sometimes that's how we think of innovation. That's beautiful for a photo shoot.
It's impractical. You're getting in my way of being comfortable. Shame on you. I'm not coming back to you. So that's why I say in technology, obviously you see a lot of the stuff that comes in a lot of noise. Ultimately, what is the purpose? Why are you doing what problem? I always tell people before you do anything, if you want to make money, find a problem to solve or an underserved market to serve. Otherwise you're just another. Right. Yeah. And I feel like sometimes we do it without regards. Like, what are you trying to accomplish? We don't think about the end goal. We're like, that's a great idea. Let's do it. Well,
Says who and what for anyway.
Nic (24:14)
No, it's funny. I'm laughing because you talk about that half door in the shower and every time I stayed at hotel that has those, always I can't help but think that I'm doing something wrong because like the water splashes off your body. Everything's getting wet and it's like, am I like am I missing something? Should I have hung a towel over the opening?
Bashar (24:31)
You're not missing anything. And by the way, they're inconveniencing you and making you think that you're stupid. Shame on you. This is the guy that's paying the bills. Give him what he wants, not what you think he wants.
Nic (24:42)
You you brought something up. So you mentioned Airbnb before. I wanted to ask you about that because Airbnb over maybe recent years, I've noticed, I don't know, maybe it's been around for a while, but they have pushed these highly immersive, unique stays like in castles and tree houses or historic estates and so on. And the thinking there is they offer something that's closer to like a narrative experience in a traditional hotel, which sounds like you're doing elements of that as well. Can you comment a little bit on that Airbnb experience? I know it doesn't scale because
You can't have like endless hotels. But just the thinking is more like we're giving you more than just a place to crash. We're giving you something you're going to be able to tell your family about.
Bashar (25:22)
Similar to what Uber did to the taxi industry, and unfortunately that equation did not work out well for the taxi industry, when these innovators, and Airbnb is an innovator and a disruptor, when they come in, you have two choices. You can cry and whine about it, or you can try to become better at what you do, believing that your offering is uniquely different. Airbnb has forced us to become better, to really think about being part of the community, to think about showing the look.
Look, I'm never gonna be able to give you the West Village experience in a hotel in Midtown. You have to go stay in an apartment in the West Village. But I can come close to it. I can take the elements that makes it exciting for you and imbue it within the hotel to give you that. What Airbnb can never give you, there is this, when you walk into a hotel room, there's this wonderful sense of security and safety. Back to again, I belong. My mom and dad are down in the lobby attending to me. I feel safe. I'm not gonna be robbed or kidnapped or whatever.
So there's this sense of comfort and sense of security that Airbnb will never be able to offer you. And we've sharpened our game enough that you go to lot of hotels now, these experiences they offer you back to what I saying earlier, the local coffee and the local art and the activations and participations from local artisans and makers and doers. So we can bring all that to you. Yet what Airbnb can't bring you is what we can bring you is the reliability, the institutional grade quality of the offering.
And the example I use against Airbnb, and I'm a fan, I'm not knocking them. And by the way, as you know, Airbnb has been around forever in different iterations, VRBO and home exchange and all of that. They've just took the friction out of that exercise by using technology and thus became a disruptor. So they were brilliant at using technology. But at the end of the day, what Airbnb can give you is the following. When you go to an Airbnb, 100 % of the time, it is about the host.
What the host rules are, what they want you to do. Do I do my own laundry? Do I do this? Do I do that? Should I deep clean the house for you? It is all about them. When you walk into a hotel, if we're doing it right, 100 % of the time, it's all about you. So we make you the center of this experience. The host is the center of the Airbnb experience. Now, they're providing you a commodity. They're trying to improve the commodity by throwing in these experiences.
The tree house is one of a kind. I can't give you a tree house. Some hotels have them obviously, but you're not going to get a bus as a, a, those are to your point. They're not scalable. They're kitschy at the end of the day. They're for the Instagrammable moment. Your day in and day out traveler is not staying in a converted school bus parked outside someone's house, walk knocking on the door to use their toilet. It's not going to happen. Right. They're interesting. They, they, in my opinion have expanded the scope of travel. They've induced new demand. The otherwise wasn't traveling, whether it was, it was,
prohibited financially or practically, but their innovation was in removing the friction and allowing people that own those converted buses to have a platform where they could sell their product, kind of like Amazon does now in a way. But there'll never be a hotel. In fact, you see them more and more mimicking and imitating hotel companies and becoming like them. They've just launched their own online travel agency. There are now Airbnb buildings, basically the entire building is Airbnb. Like, wait a minute, isn't that a hotel by definition?
So I think the lines are getting blurred, but they're good at what they do and they serve a segment that we don't serve and they've made us better at what we do collectively for the benefit of the consumer.
Nic (28:48)
Yeah, it makes total sense. like you said, it's not something that, A, they can't do it at scale, and it's not something you can replicate. But it definitely gives you a different perspective. And you can look at the edges and be like, well, I can't give you a like a castle experience. But what are you getting out of that experience? And when you ask it from that perspective, now you're like, OK, there are elements that I can provide you because what you're getting is maybe this belonging, it's a unique experience, whatever it is that they're actually getting, you might be able to replicate in different ways.
Bashar (29:17)
Well, and uniquely, like I'll give you an example in your neck of the woods, the Liberty Hotel in Boston is the old Charles Street jail. Like you are sleeping in a jail, the old building, right?
Nic (29:27)
Front
and side are called Clink and Alibi.
Bashar (29:30)
Exactly.
Exactly. So they can give you that experience, institutional grade. I don't say institutional meaning boring, beige, institutional meaning reliable, safe, secure. It's about you. And by the way, as you know, lot of the companies don't approve Airbnb for those reasons, for liability. Again, Airbnb has opened the funnel of travel exponentially and gave people options, which is always great. I love them. They're here to stay. They're not going anywhere. I'm a fan. I use them.
where appropriate and when appropriate. But I don't think they can ever give you that hotel thing unless they become a hotel company. And like I said, they're flirting with and at the edge of almost becoming one indirectly while offering the platform for these unique one-of-a-kind experiences.
Nic (30:13)
Yeah. And also, not to compare it to something like a McDonald's, but there is that element of familiarity that comes with if you eat a McDonald's at Boston versus a McDonald's in Barcelona, you're going to get the same product. And so that brings you a sense of, I don't want to say belonging, but like a stability, which is like that cheeseburger is going to taste exactly the same.
Bashar (30:35)
Certainty of execution. You know what you're getting? Yeah. Now they would argue that you're getting that from peers through user generated reviews. Sure. Which happens in hotels. But if I use this example, I've actually tried this and failed. We said, why are airport hotel boring? We should have fun airport hotels. Think about it. No fun airport hotels exist. Generally speaking, the airport traveler is a distressed traveler. Flight canceled, early morning flight. They don't want to think.
Don't make me think I need a room. They're looking for a commodity. Give me a Hilton garden in. know what I'm getting. So it's funny because you watch it and most airport hotels with one exception, maybe the TWA hotel at JFK. It's an experience, but I'd argue even then I'm staying there once, but if I don't know it exists and I'm stuck at JFK, I'm looking at the board right at the airport. don't have those anymore. Back in the day, I'm like Hilton garden in. I know what I'm getting everywhere. It's a clean room. It's a Hampton and it's a
courtyard, whatever it may be. So there's that notion also to your point that Airbnb can't deliver you because then you have to do extra work. Are those reviews real? Are they generated by the host? What are they actually saying? Do you want to go through that with trouble? Now we go back to the notion of technology. You're watching it now, Gemini on Chrome. I'll say to Gemini, look up this for me, find all the reviews, summarize it for me and tell me if this fits what you know about me and what I want and it'll do it.
So that's a brilliant use case for where AI now is doing that work for you that you don't have to. So again, making my point that technology is there to remove the friction to the betterment of our human experience.
Nic (32:13)
So if we go back to the unique experience that you create, we said before it's to make something that intuitive and simple takes a lot of work. It's a lot of design and thinking and coordination. It's actually more work removing things than it is adding, because you can always just have feature creep and keep adding and adding and I don't talk about the software world, but the hard part is saying like, no, don't do this, don't do this, and just simplify. But it also costs a lot of money, right?
What are the trade-offs when you look at one of your ⁓ establishments where you're thinking about creating this truly immersive and belonging experience where you're trying to push the envelope towards that, but you also have to balance the cost, right? Because doesn't it start becoming much more expensive when you start tailoring to that degree?
Bashar (33:01)
It's actually really interesting you asked that question because fundamentally I think it's the opposite. I think if I were to use the humans to establish the connection with you and create that memorable, repeatable, loyal experience, it's the path of least resistance. And if I can deliver there, you become more forgiving of my physical ailments, whatever I lack. So if you have to get up to open the drape yourself by hand,
and not push a button to do it. Sure, it'd be nice to press that button. But if I had that and had someone root checking you and that gets lost, it doesn't matter. Think about a meal. You can have a fantastic meal, but if the person isn't good, the meal is not as good. So I think of it as the trade off. would rather, I'll give you an actual example. We in hotels do mystery shops, right? So we send you in, no one knows who you are. You have a list of a hundred things, questions, et cetera, and you go through it. And you go through this list.
Did they use your name when they checked you in? they offer you luggage help? Blah, blah, blah.
And if I woke up one day and I said, you know what, I could ace that list and be the most miserable human you ever met. it, right? Because you know, it's all in the tone and how you say it, not what you say. So I said, this really doesn't give us a good picture. Let's intermingle with those transactional mystery shops and emotional mystery shops. So now I send you and I say, how did they make you feel when you checked in? did you make you feel all about feelings, not about things?
And it was funny to watch that the dichotomy between the two, cause some would ace one and fail the other miserably, bad news. And I don't want the inverse either, cause you still need some basic rules essentially. But ultimately if you realize that as long as your product is good enough, not perfect, it has to be good enough. People will forgive you far more for physical based on personality, not the opposite. I can give you the most spectacular building, perfect in every way and miserable people, and you're not as forgiving.
So I think technology to some extent is expensive and some of the things we're talking about that are coming are expensive. But remember at the end of the day, and I've done this in a TEDx talk that I've done, it takes you 120 seconds to Google me, to find out something about me that's interesting and act on it. It literally takes you five minutes and it costs you nothing. I'm gonna actually give you a real life example from the airline business. I'm status on Delta. I walk up to the gate. see my name on the upgrade list. I'm number whatever, two on the upgrade list. I get upgraded. Sure, I'll take it.
I'm not that excited about it because I, Bashar did not get upgraded record number five, seven, eight, nine. That's traveled this many miles that has this status. is a mathematical formula. I'll take your upgrade. go sit in the plane flight attendant. The flight comes out to me with a handwritten postcard from the pilot that says, dear Mr. Wally, thanks for being a million mile. Thanks for being diamond. You're the reason we fly. We appreciate you. I am king of the world. King of the world. Literally. And if you believe in Maslow's hierarchy of need,
At the bottom is shelter. I'm in the shelter business. At the top is transcendence and self-actualization. The card I get from the pilot is transcendence and self-actualization. The upgrade is a mathematical formula. So I think we conflate this idea of feeling in my industry specifically with things, and it really is mostly emotions. Again, baseline product must be really good, not just good, but really good, but it doesn't have to be perfect. Yet infusing some of those things that remove the friction,
Now imagine on both sides of the coin, if I can win your heart, but also not fight you along the way and give you a spectacularly effortless experience, now fireworks are going off in your head, your mind for life. I've won you for life. And by the way, I can cut my marketing budget because you're going to be my brand evangelist telling everyone who would listen about this amazing hotel use data.
Nic (36:50)
absolutely. And if you build a sense of trust, right. I mean, as you're talking, I'm going back to my mechanic because it truly is a mechanic. This isn't like a dealership where you go and you've got the espresso machine and they give you whatever, you know, sweets or whatever and snacks. This is like a mechanic shop and they just have like their little Dunkin Donuts coffee. It tastes horrible. And, you know, I don't even know if they have sugar there or whatever. But I go back.
And I go back, why? Because he remembers my name, he welcomes me every single time, and I trust him because there have been times where I'm like, I think that I'm going to need blah, blah, blah. And they'll talk me out of it because like, no, you don't need this. Actually, the issue is this other thing will fix that. You're going to save yourself 500 bucks. And I know they do that without thinking twice. And so like there's a sense of trust, which means that now they have a lifetime value in my relationship because I'm going to go there for 20 years versus
Bashar (37:43)
And tell every friend about it. Exactly. Now, I think at the end of the day, what we're talking about here, what I preach a lot is no matter what anybody tells you, I don't want to be important. I don't want to be anybody. I'm shy. I'm behind the scenes. The one thing we humans are after, back to Maslow, is to be seen. I want to be seen. I don't need you to love me. I don't need you to put me on a pedestal. I want you to see me. When I'm waiting in line, I want you to look at me and nod. Just tell me, I got you. I see you.
Nic (37:45)
Yeah, on a podcast.
Bashar (38:12)
Bear with me, I got you. And seen to me is this, again, this connection, right? If I'm at the DMV office, make sure you tell me that you've seen me. By the way, we in corporate America have colored everyone with the team. Good job, team. Well, yeah, that's great, but what about me? I want you, my boss, to tell me, I see you. I know what you're doing, I got you. Sure, you're part of the team, and the team is great, and maybe everyone needs to have that same feeling, but I think we humans, we immigrants, all of us, we want to be seen as humans.
And I feel like we've become statistical data in lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of companies views. They don't see us. They see our records. They see our spend. They see our habit. They see our patterns. All great because all that info and all that data, data science helps make the experience effortless and efficient as I want it. listen, I don't waste my time, but for God's sake, see me. Like, you know, some vendors will be like, it's your birthday. We sent you a coupon for a discount on your birthday. Automated mathematical formula.
But man, it feels good. ⁓ okay. By the way, there's this club we belong to. Every year we get a birthday card for a free app. I've never once used it. But now I look forward to getting it. Because I feel, okay, wait a minute, they see me. And you know today, technology back to technology, you can actually buy a machine, a printer that actually holds the pen and writes. ⁓
Nic (39:33)
I see, interesting. So it actually is like pressed.
Bashar (39:36)
It's pen, it's pressing a pen on the paper. It's not handwriting font, it's a pen. ⁓ So all of a sudden at scale, your mechanic for 500 bucks every Christmas can literally send a thousand Christmas cards handwritten from Joe the mechanic, which will further win your heart. So it seems daunting, it seems overwhelming, it seems complicated. It's really not, honestly, we're just lazy and don't understand the value of that piece. Again, home, relationships, your friends.
Because in a digital world, it's too easy to send a text. It's a lot harder to send a card. I told you here, there is a service that will send a handwritten card to your loved ones that says, love you, happy birthday, whatever, handwritten from you. Like you don't have to be lazy about it if you don't wanna be, but we are lazy. We just want the path of least resistance. I mean, the only reason most of us have Facebook now is so we can click happy birthday. That's the only, if Instagram did this, Facebook will be dead.
Nic (40:29)
Oh, I agree. Yeah, it definitely saved more than once of people's birthdays. But it's a, know, thank you for the tip. I actually need that printer, especially for like, like New Year's cards. You know, you've got 100 or 200 or whatever you're sending out. And then, you know, you do the lazy thing, which is just like print it out and mail it. But then it's like, if you can actually come up with something that it writes, that would actually be
Bashar (40:48)
Well,
now if you send me one, I'm going to know you cheated and used the machine. you can't do it anymore. But literally it is a machine that you will see the pen moving. It is writing using a pen that you'd have to replace when it runs out of ink.
Nic (40:59)
Yeah. If we take a quick turn to your innovation process, when you think about the unique things that you're doing with your hotels, does it all come from you or do you have a team or do you engage the teams and the people that work? You talked about congratulating people in your team and making them feel seen. When I talk to people in other organizations that trying to stimulate innovation, the reason we're bringing this up is because trying to...
If you're the only innovator, that's one thing, but if you're trying to create a sense of innovation in your organization, you have to build it into the culture. You've got to create an environment where people feel safe psychologically to be able to take risks, where people share and they don't feel like they're going to be shot down or be embarrassed. And so what does it look like for you to innovate in your hotels? it Bashar coming up with the great ideas or do you have people that you engage with? And if you do, how do you create that environment for creativity?
Bashar (41:57)
And as you know, you've got to create a culture that celebrates innovation because otherwise you're going to stifle it. And if you think you're the only person and your ego is that big, then good luck. You're going to be out of business. And my ego is pretty big, trust me. And I see a lot more than most, as I mentioned, particularly people that generally work in this industry. They don't have the luxury that I have that I'd be able to move around and do what I do. But if you don't establish, I'm going to give you a really simple example. You're a mechanic, by the way. You've got to name him. He's going to be very happy with you.
There you go. There you go. So the example I'll bring from that world is not my idea. And it's so simple. You know, when you go to a mechanic shop, they put like a piece of paper in the driver's seat on the floor. So they're a dirtier floor with their greasy shoes or whatever. Someone in one of my hotels decided, you know, we valet park cars. Why don't we do the same thing for valet? So now when you valet park your car with us on the floor of your car, there will be a piece of paper that has the hotel's branding on it. And when you leave, we'll take it out and give you your car back like you gave it to us.
It's a piece of paper. We're not curing cancer. I cannot tell you how many people have come and said, oh my God, amazing. Thank you. And it's this extra touch that says, again, dear guests, I see you, you matter, your car matters to me, and we're taking care of your car. So an example, another example we've done, you go to a hotel, you open the door, there's a Bible. But why is there a Bible? You're Jewish, this guy is Hindu, I'm ACF, this guy is whatever, Muslim. Why are we sticking you with a Bible? For getting married out, which is part of their thing.
that book of Mormons. We said, you know what, let's take the Bible out. Let's go and not be arbiters of what is good and what is not good or any of that. Let's take the top 10 religions in the world represented by numbers, just purely statistical numbers, and create a spiritual menu of those 10 holy books. And someone shows up, they open the drawer, there's a spiritual menu, they call you, they say, please bring me a copy of the Torah. And we trained our people on how to handle those books respectfully based on the tradition of,
the religion, because there's some obviously nuance. One of the most stolen pieces of collateral in the room, because people want to take it and show their loved ones, my God, you won't believe. Those are the things to me that aren't my ideas that the team come up with, and most of the ideas come from the teams. But they need to know that you celebrate. By the way, anyone who tells you there's no stupid ideas, there's a lot of stupid ideas, mine included. But if you don't entertain those, the good ideas will never come.
And someone at a corporate Hilton would say, my God, no way, we're not taking the Bible out. That makes no sense. We were the first hotel company to put beehives on the roofs because we understood that bees travel in a very limited ⁓ area, circumference of where the location is. And the flavor notes of the honey will reflect that neighborhood. So imagine you show up to a hotel and now we're selling you honey in the mini bar to bring home back to your young daughter and say, this honey came from the five mile, three, two mile radius around the hotel you stayed in. So there's to me our
innovative, thoughtful, intentional. One of our chefs said, you know what, everybody goes to the mini bar, let's create a pairings menu for the mini bar. So Nick, there's a menu that says, if you like this Snickers bar, we think the beer that comes from this local brewer, blah, blah, would be the best. And here's why it's the best to pair with that candy bar. People always think of innovation like cure cancer, right? It doesn't have to be. It's really the simple moments that make a stay more pleasant, more effortless, more convenient, and most importantly, more memorable.
Nic (45:21)
Yeah, yeah, this is definitely resonating with me. When you were talking about when you value the car, I was also imagining like a fresh bottle of water in the container.
Bashar (45:31)
Yes, but no plastic. So we don't do that anymore. We used to. And we used to put on the bottle like that thing you put the label you put on top that said something like, loved having you stay hydrated, come back and see us soon or something like that. And again, all these things do is I see you. I see you.
Nic (45:51)
So with all this said, I'd love to know your perspective on clearly the high end hospitality world has been evolving. It's not today what it was 20 years ago or 50 years ago or 100 years ago. You're sitting not at the core, you're at like the forefront. You're looking at that front edge of just really doing truly innovative things and changing the whole experience. So as we sit here, February 5th, 2026, there's all kinds of stuff happening with modern technologies and
⁓ Obviously, society is changing. Where do you see the industry changing? What's your perspective on what we might be able to anticipate from your hotels or just the industry as a whole over the next five, 10 years?
Bashar (46:35)
mean, look, I am an early adopter by a long measure, apps and technology and all the things, and I will continue to be. And I am not a naysayer. Someday we will lie in bed, put a VR set on and literally feel the sand between our toes and taste the strawberry and feel the water. It's coming. Maybe in our lifetime, maybe not in mine, but it's coming. Until then, you have to go to the place and stick your toes in the sand.
you have to go to Thailand and taste that strawberry. You have to go to Japan and eat that sushi. Which is good news for us because we're sort of agnostic to technology. doesn't matter. And by the way, transportation and sure, there'll be there'll be unmanned airplanes and all that. It's all coming. But you still need to get on the plane, get in the car, get on the plane or whatever and get to the destination. And you need a place to sleep because until we find a way that we no longer have to sleep because we're to be on drugs and awake all the time.
We need a place to sleep or a place to go to the bathroom or a place to eat. So I don't see us changing drastically because of that basic human need until it changes. So all the things we talked about now is what I want as a traveler. I want effortless. I don't want to press buttons. I don't want to sign anything. I don't want to tell you anything. Read my mind. By the way, one interesting thing that I'm very focused on now also, there's this notion that we humans make micro expressions.
And you could be a CIA agent trained for 20 years and you cannot help make those micro expressions. And the one example I use is if I am selling you something and I pay enough attention and your pupils dilate, you're aroused in every sense. It doesn't matter whether it's business or sexual or emotional. The minute you're aroused, you've bought what I'm selling you. You've told me you bought my product, but we don't pay enough attention because we keep talking.
And once I'm past that stage of arousal, you're now coming off it and you're now bored and can't listen to me anymore. And after you've already bought it, you've unbought it. So when I think about innovation, that to me is an innovative way of treating people is training our customer, our employees, how to read the customer emotionally and physically and react to them. But outside of that, from a technology standpoint, I think you're going to see AI obviously infiltrate. I'll give you another real life example of dynamic pricing. We've always had dynamic pricing. The airlines have mastered it.
I don't think they even know how it works, but they've mastered it. You and I sitting in the same airplane next to each other in the same exact seat. I may have paid one third, one fourth, one 10th what you paid and there's no rhyme or reason for it. But the way I explained dynamic pricing goes as follows. I like lattes. I want to order a latte. I have all the means in the world. I want to buy a latte at 8 a.m. My latte costs 10 bucks. Nick, you don't have enough money. You can't afford a $10 latte. A latte should not cost the same price at 3 p.m. as it does at 8 a.m.
It's supply and demand. So if we can use technology to allow us to automatically change those things. So now the latte is $6 at 3pm. You are happy. You're now buying the latte you can afford. The owner of the shop is happy. They're selling a lot more lattes than they used to. Everyone is happy. That's a great use case. Another example is I went at 7pm reservation by the window on a premium Saturday night for dinner.
the prices I see on the menu should be different than the prices you see at 5 p.m. on a Monday sitting by the toilet. So all of a sudden, everyone is happy. You're happy because you're getting what you want. I'm happy because I'm getting what I want. And the proprietor is happy because they're moving the tables and getting more activity. Now the airlines started using this. Delta talked about profiling their customers as they're booking. And there are issues there as you know. Oh, I'm.
I'm black, I'm white, I'm poor, I'm rich, you're treating me differently, I'm paying you the same price for the airplane seats, screw you, don't treat me differently. So there are moral implications that we're still working through, but I feel like this whole notion of remove the friction, improve the quality of the transaction, learn more about me, your customer, avoiding the creepo factor, give me what I want with that. Like if you know I like, I don't know, scrambled eggs in the morning and I'm staying with you and I show up.
Maybe don't automatically bring it, be like, kind of like back to the example, Martini, sir, and it's showing up for you. So a lot of those things technology is making so possible. I should know when you're arriving from the airport, like I mentioned, the art changing, the channel turning on, the door opening with your phone. I think all that stuff is inevitably coming. We do tend to be as an industry laggers and late adopters, and I'll tell you another story why we tend to be that way. If you go into Bentley, by the way, car.
The technology in it generally is very archaic. You go into a Kia, one-tenth the price and the technology is so far ahead. And part of the notion and the thinking is for a brand like Bentley, there's too much at stake to try to be early adopters because if it doesn't work, it's long-term reputational damage. So they say, you know what, we'll stay with the tried and true, let the new guys tinker with it, fix all the problems and once they're fixed, we'll take them on.
We also kind of feel the same way, by the way, again, neurotic hotel stares. I'd rather go and close the drape myself because those buttons and iPads they give you to do the lights and all that 90 % of the time do not work 90%. Interesting. Now some innovation. I'll give you another example that we'll see more of the Equinox hotel in New York city. Next to bed, there's a button that says sleep well or something. You press the button and automatically all the shades go down. All the lights turn off.
Nic (51:48)
thing.
Bashar (52:02)
and the temperature drops down to 67, the scientifically proven ideal sleeping temperature. That's not technology driven. You could have done that 10 years ago. That's innovative because we're finally waking up and realizing we're in the sleep business. If I don't give you sleep, nothing else matters, right? So I think that's what you're going to see more of because the customer is far more educated, far more exposed, far more worldly and demanding of the nonsense being removed from the transaction.
Nic (52:27)
That makes total sense. the customization, it's a... You were talking about the scrambled eggs and for moment I thought, well, there's a fine line. You wouldn't go so far that it becomes creepy. you get a text, Bishar, we noticed you just came out of the shower. Your eggs are on the way.
Bashar (52:42)
I mean, listen, as long as it's by choice, I want it. I want it, right? Some people may not want. And that's again, where you start crossing into this complicated land. So it's easier for us to just assume not and let someone else deal with it and work it out. And then we'll adopt it from them down the road. it's intimate. mean, we are in your bedroom, right? Think about it. It could backfire terribly.
Nic (53:00)
sense.
You don't wanna push the boundaries, but not too far. This has been extraordinary. mean, you've given me such a different perspective and I definitely, need to come and stay at one of your hotels by all means. ⁓ So I'll be looking for those whether New York or other places, but this has been a really great conversation. But Bashar, I'd like to finish off with a question because you're clearly very active. So you're nowhere close to retirement or anything like that. But if you could project forward and just kind of think about.
what you're trying to accomplish with your career. And let's say you're in a place and time, sometime in the future where you can reflect on what you've done, you can look back and think about what a best case scenario would look like, where you feel like you've achieved your full impact and where maybe you may change this to the industry or people's experience and belonging and so on. What do you think would be the kind of scenario?
where you feel like it would give you the biggest fulfillment over what you've accomplished. And this could be things that you've done already or maybe things you anticipate doing over the rest of your career.
Bashar (54:08)
⁓ My favorite way to give back is mentoring because I clearly see the next generation and what they're capable of and what they're going to do. So my fulfillment will be someday to have someone say, that guy pushed us, the next gen, to be better at what we do and forced us to think differently about how we're thinking about it and not just continue to do what's always been done expecting different results.
I don't want anything named after me. don't want statues. don't want wings of anything. I want to go fade away happily and disappear forever and never be thought of again. But I literally want some next gen aspiring hotelier because this industry really truly is passion driven. It's not the highest paying industry. It's not, it's terrible hours. You're always working when everyone else is partying. You think about all the, you know, very few businesses that are open 24 seven, three 65. So
All I ask for is hopefully I am the guy who was questioning the status quo and forced others, particularly the next gen, to rethink how we've done business for a long time. That's all I ask for. And I think I see it today. And if you follow me, you'll see it. I am definitely sharply opinionated and will call BS when I see it without hesitation. And people welcome that because they're tired of sort of having yes men and women around them that just nodded, smile at everything everyone does and celebrate it when it's not worth celebrating.
Nic (55:27)
And you definitely do not strike me as a yes man. And true to form, I think in full circle, it's very much aligned with how we started the conversation, which you look for that human experience. so starting with that, looking for that human experience and how you build your teams all the way to the things that gives you the most fulfillment is again, that human experience of mentorship. It's
It's inspiring. This conversation has been extraordinary. You've given me a different insight into the hospitality space and the opportunities ⁓ that can be applied there, but also taken into other areas, including software development and other things. So for all those things, Bishar, it's been a pleasure to meet you. And thank you so much for being on Natural Selection.
Bashar (56:08)
Thanks for having me. I appreciate you.
