Gaming: Unplugged Arcade/LEGO • Dan Winger
Ecosystem Arbitrage
Dan Winger spent 18 years at LEGO designing the future of play. Now he’s doing something counterintuitive: building a new category of games by looking backward.
In this episode, Dan explains how he identified an overlooked niche in stagnant barroom gaming, designed around social behavior rather than technology, and turned an experimental product into a rapidly emerging business. We explore niche strategy, ecosystem customers, product-market fit, skill versus randomness, manufacturing bottlenecks, and how AI is lowering the barriers to entrepreneurship.
The larger lesson: sometimes the biggest innovation opportunity is hiding in what everyone else has stopped reinventing.
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Nic (00:00)
Dan, welcome to a natural selection.
Dan (00:02)
Pleasure to be here, Nick.
Nic (00:04)
you and I connected about a year ago. So this has been a work in progress. and and I've been very excited to talk to you. When when we connected, you were at Lego at the time. And ever since then you've s you've launched off into your own startup. So we're gonna unpack that a little bit, but it's been quite a transition for you over the last year.
Dan (00:23)
Yeah, well lots of big changes. So yeah, been at Lego. I was at Lego for eighteen years on their innovation team and this is my first venture into the the startup space.
Nic (00:34)
That's amazing. so before we get too far into it, because I think there's so much to talk about there, I I always like to start with the same question that allows you in your own words to tell the audience why you do what you do. So Dan, could you please let us know what need or impact drives your work?
Dan (00:50)
My focus, especially lately, is to
To build friendships the old fashioned way. So I I was on the Lego innovation team for 18 years, doing a lot of tech enabled product lines and it was super cool stuff with, you know, all the f the the greatest new tech. And then I stumbled down this rabbit hole last year of basically the impact of social media. Like I remember when this came out, it promised to connect humanity. But all the research today is showing how it's
Increasing loneliness, isolation, depression, all these factors. And as a dad of three kids, I was like, this is a problem. This is a generational problem. Because this is how kids are interacting with the world and how adults are. So my goal is to you know to to build friendships. And actually, what what set me on the direction of the the new venture, if we want to get into that now, is actually there's an interview.
The there there's demand, people have demand for 15 friends, but today they only have three friends. And that is largely a problem created by social media and his solution was to normalize AI friends, girlfriends, therapists, and that sounds like a dystopian hellhole. So so that that that kind of set me on this this mission to build friendships the old-fashioned way.
Nic (02:27)
Yeah, that's I I I I completely agree. You know, I think it's social media, it it it started under the banner of connecting people, and it really has kind of created a a wall between people, a digital wall, right? It's like people are just stuck to their mobile, thinking they're being social, but all of the three-dimensional and real-world elements of being social, shaking somebody's hand, sharing a meal, the kind of things that
A
our our our primal ancestors kind of built social clans around all that stuff is gone when you start just getting strictly into the digital world, right? So you know, your your mission around kind of like reconnecting people, at least the way that I interpret it, really resonates.
Dan (03:10)
And I even speaking with someone who works on a college campus, and that they're struggling on a campus, which is like, you know, the the social one of the the most core social experiences, but students are having a hard time connecting. And even when they're doing their media, like, you know, they they take pictures of people around campus. Everyone's looking down at a screen. It was like it's so, I guess it's just so ubiquitous.
So we we need something to to drive us together. And as an introvert and you know a play designer, my thing is like games have always been like I I do a lot of I well before I was working hundred-hour weeks, but I'd I'd often have game nights, invite different families over, it bridges the generational gap because you you have this shared goal, you have this shared experience that everyone
everyone can hook into. So it it works as an icebreaker and then you know keeps the engagement, the social engagement going. So I'm going on a tangent there.
Nic (04:18)
Yeah, and I last year. No, no, no.
I last year I interviewed, I think, a mutual friend of ours, Denise Weston, who she she worked at she she's the one that came up with the magic wand for the Great Wolf Lodge. And and I remember talking to her and with all the gizmos and interesting, you know, ways of playing, at the core of it was building connection.
between family members. Right. And so I think a lot of this, regardless of how you look at it, I learned that a lot of it is really tapping into that social need that we have to just fundamentally connect with somebody else.
Dan (04:56)
Yeah, and it it just gives you it it it's hard to spark a conversation like with with a stranger, e even family sometimes. But if you sit down and play a game, you're given an objective. You're giving the rules of how you interact with people around you. And that that just kind of breaks that social, you know, breaks down the the barriers to, you know, social interaction.
Nic (05:22)
Yeah. And and so before we get into the the work that you're doing in your history, it how did you get into this space, right? So we all start by playing, right? which is such a universal thing that we all kind of embrace when we're early on. And then over time, I think, you know, many people just kind of like lose that spark for that curiosity, that playful spark. You baked it into a career, right? And so can you tell us a little bit about how that happens?
Dan (05:49)
Yeah, so I was one when I started I was the the second Lego designer based in the US. So I I think there there were five of us, you know, before I left. But so I I stumbled into a dream job that, you know, I you know, the probability again is almost zero. So how it I always like making things. I was, you know, an artist, I went studied architecture, then got a gr a grad degree in industrial design.
And I like building things. And quite frankly, I I wasn't a Lego kid growing up. We we had a a bin of Lego. I thought they were Lego bricks. I didn't realize they were a the Tyco super blocks until I I was looking at old photos. So I I didn't touch a Lego brick as a kid. So Lego like bricks. But yeah, so I I I like to build stuff and I I had a thesis project was
Which was this interactive experience to teach for creativity in music. Basically, you'd learn music theory and then you would apply it. There's a curriculum built around it. It was like a tech integrated product. So it had a creative component, it had an educational component. It was aligned with some of the work LEGO was doing with at the time. So I got some freelance work 18 years, 19 years ago now, and then kind of yeah.
Yeah, just yeah. Continued on working with Lego and yeah, was brought on full time. And yeah.
Nic (07:26)
Yeah, like you said, I mean, that's just one of these things. It's it's a rare opportunity that you know, one person out of at the time, I don't know, five billion people. You can't count on that path, right? It just kind of like lightning struck and you you you capitalized on that. So and it's led to to now. So can you tell us a little bit about Unplugged Arcade and the the work that you're doing these days? And maybe even as you're going into that, like that transition from
where you were for so many, you know, years at Lego into this world of a different genre of gaming, a different format, but also like from a very big established company to a startup world.
Dan (08:09)
Yeah, so being because so much of my work focused on interactive technology, there was often a game or game like component. Because, you know, when there's interactive play, i it it gets game like in a hurry. So I I've yeah, I've spent a lot of time researching games. I I'm a big board game player as well, so I've always kind of merged kind of the worlds between toy and gaming. So
When my Lego career was wrapping up, I started looking at the space. before I launched the new venture. I I experiment with a political satire collectible card game. So you know, I I launched a new card every 30 days and just to see if it'd take off. It it didn't, so I had this other idea sitting on the back burner of just this big baseball game, but I didn't know what to do with it.
But th then just going back to the mission of building friendships the old fashioned way. It's like, okay, if I build a board game, there's ten thousand games published every year. Video games are twenty thousand. So if my goal is to build friendships the old fashioned way, I I I ask myself, where do friends meet?
Nic (09:31)
Did you say that
there are twenty thousand video games launched every year?
Dan (09:34)
Yes. So you you have a
Nic (09:36)
Wow.
Dan (09:37)
lot of independent stuff published on Steam and other platforms.
Nic (09:41)
I see,
okay. That's a lot of competition. So I see where you're going with this, you know, differentiation, right?
Dan (09:46)
Yeah, it was like, okay, if I launched a game in that space, I would have no impact. I would just have you know, a drip in an ocean. So, you know, taking a more systematic approach to it, I was like,
Wh where can I find a new niche? So I asked myself where friends meet up. So you know, bars, restaurants, breweries, entertainment venues. And so I started diving down the the entertainment path, and there's a lot of cool stuff going on. There, there's your virtual golf, like top golf, you have baseball simulators, you've got duckpin bowling, axe throwing, pickleball bars, Meow Wolf has interactive art. But all of these are either
They're large venue installations or or there's stuff like interactive shuffleboard and now it's digitized or just digitally enhanced versions of existing games. Meanwhile, the the category of barroom gaming, your your darts pool, shuffleboards, foosball, there's been no
There's been no new game in over a hundred years. It is remarkably stagnant. So my thinking is, could I once I realize that it's like that's that's the aha moment. That's the space I want to play in. So my thinking was, could I bridge the gap between modern game design and classic barroom games?
And then looking at the format factors, like you know, poop pool is big, it's expensive, it's only two maybe four-player game. There's it's a hundred percent skill, so because the lack of randomness, it's hard to compete with a friend that's better than you. So I want to address a lot of issues, make it smaller, higher player count, or wider player count, more beginner-friendly, accommodate more groups and just
just more energetic too. Cause once you start building in randomness, it it creates a a lot of additional value.
Nic (11:58)
That's interesting.
Yeah, you know, the the part about kind of leveling out the game really resonated with me. I I grew up playing tennis, right? And tennis is one of these things where you have to be at a certain level, otherwise it's just it's too lopsided and it becomes more of a lesson than an actual game. But then in golf, there is the handicap, which kind of is the equalizer, and and so it almost sounds like you're thinking along those lines, right? Because I I think about that too. Like if I get in a football table with somebody that's really good, they're gonna crush me because I don't play foosball or or
to your point, pool or anything like that. So you're thinking about how do we make this into something that's interactive that it could be between people at different levels or even maybe with, you know, between adults and children.
Dan (12:39)
A hundred percent. And and this is where the the modern board game space does this so incredibly well. So many games now are have built in they call them catch up mechanisms. So if someone is is in the the lead, there's gonna be some rules in place that kind of pulls them back.
So, I mean the the classic games like Monopoly don't have this. And you'll know who's everyone at the table knows who's gonna win. You just have to continue for the next half hour for the game to play out. So so yeah. So what I want to address, yeah, and make it more social too. Even pool, you're spending the time avoiding each other because you you don't you you need a big bubble. So you know, can we get people together, make it more social, you know, make it just easier to exist.
Nic (13:29)
And yeah, I you know, I guess you just kinda like do the the the grand spoiler alert. You you've actually had quite a bit of demand of your your of your games, right? You said, you know, you kind of like were playing with those like once a month card before you didn't get a lot of traction. This is a wildly different story. Can you share a little bit about what really happened coming out of the gate?
Dan (13:49)
Yeah, I I guess so
Unplugged Arcade. So the idea of Unplugged Arcade is a publisher for these modern classic barroom games. So the first game I designed is Baseball Shuffle. It's a dice-flicking mashup of baseball and shuffle board, and it's built into a cocktail table. And you can even strategically position your drinks and act as bumpers. So so it w which is a fun hook. So and
Yeah, it it's so my goal was to r run events locally and just test if there there's a market for a modern barroom game. Because one hasn't been created for so long. So
So I I is it was a struggle to find a shop that could build it because the the graphics created problems with you know furniture manufacturers. But anyways, I found a local company who could do one and we spent a couple months kind of ramping up production. May 13th I delivered the first order to EO's Athletics Club in Durham. It's a it's a sports bar. And at the time I was getting a a lot of chatter on social.
media and people asking is like how how do I play this game that keeps popping up in my feed? I was like okay that's interesting. So I just share an old tutorial video I I made with my kids in the backyard. So the very next day so May 14th it blows up it goes viral and it ends up hitting 2.5 million views
Nic (15:29)
Yeah, that's awesome.
Dan (15:30)
So I'm in the this is no money spent on advertising or even production. And I'm in the process of doing a new video because I I want to show this in you know in a brewery, you know, with you know kind of you know the right culture rather than my kids in the backyard. So I launched that video three weeks later and that one blows up on every platform and it's now approaching ten million organic views.
So
Nic (16:03)
That's incredible. Yeah, that's
Dan (16:06)
And so this
Nic (16:06)
it.
Dan (16:07)
has created problems with manufacturing. So we launched with a custom shop and you know we we were able to produce a hundred units, but those were sold out in two months. And
Nic (16:20)
Mm.
Dan (16:21)
and has basically became overwhelming for them that they, you know, they either had to go all in or stop production and it was just too risky and yeah, it was becoming clear they couldn't grow quick enough to to go
All in on this, so
Nic (16:37)
Yeah, this sounds like a
a a massive success problem. are these orders mainly US? Are they international?
Dan (16:45)
we experimented they're mainly US. We experimented with shipping a couple to Canada just to understand the process and like i and this is all just me and a a few friends have chipped in to to help out. So yeah, so we tried to simplify it and just, you know you know, figure one thing at a time. Because when it went viral
When the order started flowing in I still had no idea how to ship the game. Like it's a big ex big heavy piece of wood. It was like I I yeah, so
Nic (17:17)
Yeah, this is it sounds like you need to go on Shark Tank and get one of those guys to help you.
Dan (17:23)
We will be coming to Kickstarter for the next phase. So
Nic (17:26)
Okay, that's a that's fantastic. Well,
congratulations. I mean, this is, you know, the stuff of dreams. Obviously it's stressful and you have to overcome major obstacles in manufacturing and processing and shipping and distribution and all that kind of stuff. but it's a far better problem than like zero interest.
Dan (17:46)
Yeah.
I and it shows there is a demand for this new category of gaming, like you know,
Nic (17:52)
Yeah.
Dan (17:53)
the a modern bar game, which which seems to make sense 'cause the the younger generation th they're drinking less. They're looking for and because of that, the breweries and bars are looking for more ways to activate the community. So they're doing trivia nights and karaoke and every day of the week, speed puzzling. There's all these activities every day of the week.
You know, so I think there's the opportunity to, you know, could I come in as like the third pillar? Like could could we bring League Knight to this and you know to compete with karaoke and trivia? Every venue has karaoke and trivia, and then it kind of falls off the cliff for the the other you know activations.
Nic (18:40)
Yeah, and you know, I guess you know, one one question and and my questions come from naivete because I don't know this space at all. But when there's such demand and and then obviously you have these bottlenecks for s satisfying that demand, how do you make sure that people that find out about this don't fill in that gap for you? Like manufacturers in China make this. I mean, is there I
There's no IP that necessarily protects you from doing this, right? So is it just like a l a land grab and first one to flood the market wins? Or, you know, how how do you go about making sure that you fill in that gap with before competitors kind of sniff out what you're doing?
Dan (19:20)
Great question. Yeah, th this was my concern early on because I knew I wouldn't be able to scale if let's say a big pool table manufacturer wanted to jump in on this space. So I actually have filed patents. So just a couple weeks ago the non-provisional patents have filed. So
Nic (19:37)
great.
Dan (19:37)
I I've I have a utility patent and design patent. You cannot patent game rules. You can there's no IP ownership other than just like, you know, the copyright of the text. So yeah, I I
I I made sure to file patents on this and in terms of stopping people from coming in on this, there are more DIYers building this game than I've been able to produce, or you know, my my local shop has been able to produce, even just this week. Yes,
Nic (20:07)
You said you you said DI wires? What's that?
Dan (20:12)
do-it-yourself builders.
Nic (20:14)
got it.
Dan (20:14)
So a l a lot of people building it for for their basements, their man caves. There
Nic (20:19)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (20:20)
is a there's a Reddit thread with about 200 comments. Just this week there was a post on a man cave page with a million followers on the page, and this one w had like, you know, four or five hundred likes and just a very active comment thread. So yes, there's definitely
Yeah. Which at this point i it's good, it's validation that, you know, th there is a opportunity here. So
Nic (20:49)
Yeah.
Is this something that you could is it something that you could accelerate using like three D printing?
Dan (20:59)
But I d
Because the scale, it's large, I I want it part of it is also the heritage. I'm I'm building a brand that these games could have existed three hundred or sorry, could have existed a hundred years ago. So that that's the whole aesthetic of unplugged arcade from yeah, so so the the brand direction. So I I'm avoiding doing plastic, but yeah, th th the the biggest gains are commercial main.
manufacturers.
So we were working with a small custom shop who just didn't have any sort of pipeline in place to run like a factory. So yeah, we we're s yeah speaking with several getting quotes now with several shops who will be able to turn this out at you know mass quantity. So our our goal is to find a manufacturer who can do a hundred to five hundred units a month.
Nic (21:58)
That's that's incredible. Well, again, congratulations on the on the success. I mean, this is really I remember the the the first startup that I started, one of my investors said at some point that the goal is to feel like you you're on a rocket ship and you're barely holding on by the tip of your fingertips. And it it sounds like the this s sounds a little bit like that.
Dan (22:24)
Yeah. I yes, exactly. And I I just it it is it's exciting to see all the you know, the traction, but that's creating more urgency to get everything going. And and and quite frankly, this has all been bootstrapped and my whole savings is in this, so I need to get to cash flow immediately. So there there's also that sense of urgency as well.
Nic (22:50)
No, absolutely. Well, I mean again, the demand is there, right? So now it's a matter of fulfilling that demand. And yeah, it's it's it's an interesting logistical challenge, but it sounds like you've got things kind of working right now to at least get five hundred a month and then start ramping up from there, right?
Dan (23:10)
Yes, a and because
I running this I realized there's so many unknown unknowns. Cause I you know, I came from corporate world and quite frankly I was remote in on a different continent, so I didn't see a lot of the organiz organizational, you know, I I guess, you know, perspectives in tasks. And so I ended up just a month ago, I bringing on two partners. So Andy's gonna head up BizDev and he's got a background.
from Apple, Microsoft, Epic Games. And then Ed wa he ran a industrial manufacturing company in in North Carolina. So he's he's gonna take operations. So we have a little team building. So
Nic (24:02)
That's phenomenal.
Yeah, you know, it's I was gonna ask you about that, right? Because when you're in a big corporation like Lego, your job is very specific and you can do all the design and innovation. And then at some point, you know, when it's time to produce it, then you presumably ship it off, you pass it on to the next layer and then layer and layer after that. And then there's, you know, from manufacturing to marketing to sales and everything in between gets handled for you, and then you're on to the next project. in this case
You're wearing every hat from designer to manufacturer to janitor to pizza delivery guy.
Dan (24:35)
Yes. Well and I think so a lot of it being on an early innovation team
You you have really small teams. Most of my projects we had teams of three. So you had to learn how to do stuff. You yes, they were all design hats, but you wore a lot of hats. and I think that's been a great experience just to you know, if you don't know something, you learn it and you you figure out how to do it. It may not be perfect, but you can you can do it good. So so I think that attitude has and you know that experience I guess has
But
There's a whole nother component. I don't think I could have done this four years ago. I think today we have access to infinite information. So and y very filtered information. So yes, you know, I I I'm using AI tools as advisors and you know, so much. I I don't know if I could have ever gotten to this point. Yeah, I I can do all the design side myself, but all the other parts
of it which is keeps growing exponentially.
Nic (25:50)
Huge.
absolutely. It's I I was just having a conversation with somebody yesterday, and we were talking about how AI has changed the game so much that even if we look back at startups or companies that we were in years before, we would have done things completely different had we had the technology available today. It's it's a game changer to the extent of like the internet, right? It's almost impossible to remember what life was before the internet. We can, but it's it's really, really hard.
a same thing with AI. It's like it's it's impossible to think about how I do my work today without this modern technology. It's really only been around for two to three years.
Dan (26:29)
To think yeah, there there's a lot of challenges with AI, but I think there can be great gains for entrepreneurship. Like I would love to see a future that, you know, supports more more on you know, more entrepreneurs going out and following their passion because you you have access to the information you need.
Nic (26:49)
Yeah. And so obviously you started off with this idea with a thesis that clearly has hit a mark in some way. When you start hearing the feedback about this viral demand for what you've produced, is it largely aligned with what your original thesis was about why you were building this? Or have you learned new things? Like have you tapped into other components? People are like, I really love X.
And
you're like, well, I never thought about it that way. But yeah, this is something that's baked into the game almost inadvertently, but you've addressed the need.
Dan (27:20)
Yeah, I I think there's a bit of both. So what what's becoming clear are the the different types of audience, like w what messages are resonating.
there there's you know the drink placement. So it's messaging to the beer crowd. Like, you know, th tha that's a hook. It's messaging to sports fans with the baseball theme. It's messaging to people who like games, woodworkers. So I'm start but what I'm finding that there's people like there's quo tons of quotes like I don't even like baseball but I love this. So so I I
I don't so I I think it's just the simplicity and the approachability. My goal was to make it visually stunning. So it's just a good to look at product.
Nic (28:16)
So it draws the eye at a bar, right?
Dan (28:18)
yes. I mean
What I actually ditched in the second video, so the first video I shot in my backyard, it was it was quiet. So there's a whole tactical component to this as well. So I I I had to just, you know, silence the the background noise of the bar, but just the clickety clack of the dice rolling down the the the steps. and but so
I I brought some learnings from the video game world over into this. So there's a term called game feel. It's like what does it feel like when you hit that button to smash or jump? It just feels good. It feels rewarding. So I want to ensure that the game feel is good when you flick the dice. So we put a lot of RD into the surface. You know, I want a slick surface that feels like you're gliding a shuffleboard puck off a
you know, on a smooth surface. It it just feels a lot better than, you know, if you don't have any of the sand down. So so yeah. I I forget where I was going with that. But yeah, so
Nic (29:28)
The so
the elements that you're hearing back about where people are connecting with this that either aligned with your pr original premise or new things that popped out that you just didn't anticipate.
Dan (29:41)
Yeah.
A lot of lines, new things, gosh. yeah, sorry, I'm so deep in I I'm not I I guess I don't what new thing. Okay, the the simplicity. Okay, so I I just my goal is to get a mid video down to three minutes. I ended up getting it down to a minute 40. You there's probably about 30% of the Facebook comments are saying this is way too complicated. Like if you're in the
Board game world, a minute 40 is ridiculously simple. In fact, it takes longer to teach eight ball. Like everyone knows pool. You don't understand how complicated it is until you know you learn it for the first time. And then once you learn it, it's it's just you know, you don't have to think about it anymore. But you do have to learn it that first time. So what I'm finding that that minute 40 to
Teach is still too complicated. So part of it is I launched with just normal dice because I wanted to test the market and I will be going to so basically this number means this thing and then that thing you have to do this. So so there's this mental gap that happens. So next phase, I definitely need the the custom dice that will help communicate. It's like when it lands on a one, that's a pop fly, and you're out. So
So the dice just says out, you don't have to make that mental leap. And it also it will help for spectatorship.
So yeah, I I wanted to design a game that was fun to watch because I wanted to scale to a larger player count. And if you're not actively engaged, what's you gonna gonna keep you from walking away? So I I wanted it to play like a shuffle like a craps table where everybody's engaged and together. So
Nic (31:42)
Yeah. Yeah.
And if you're walking by, you hear the excitement, you're like, well, what are they playing? Right?
Dan (31:48)
Yes, yes.
Nic (31:49)
And you know, that's really interesting. And we when you were talking about the surfaces, I never really thought about it, but you're absolutely right. Like some games just have that kind of that that that feedback, that reward where you click a button or you pop this or whatever, and you just get this little three-dimensional physical feedback that it really kind of makes you feel good about doing it.
that's clearly something, you know, like video games can, you know, the phone can buzz and stuff like that, but it's not the same thing. So you have a whole different order of mechanisms to stimulate people in in this kind of in-person game format than video games that don't currently have. You know, obviously they have like AR and and in virtual reality and artificial reality or what's it called? Augmented reality. so they add a little bit to it, but you're still missing.
a big component around smell, touch, and and the other senses, right?
Dan (32:47)
Yeah, I mean their advantage is like particle effects. Like y you do sparkly things that that just stimulates your brain. So
Nic (32:56)
Mm-hmm.
Dan (32:57)
there there are definitely advantages to that side, but yeah. So but I mean there's also just, you know, that
e even just you know, th the sound of it happening in the real world versus, you know, project being projected from a T V is a a bit more immersive. I I haven't gotten into like the the auditory factor, but that that could actually be a fun experiment sometime. It's like, you know, can can
Nic (33:21)
yeah. Yeah, the
sorry, what so what do you think is is the what makes a game sticky, right? So you you spent a lot of time in a company that has become obviously like very sticky part of society, you know, what what little kid doesn't know about Lego? and now you're on to the startup, which is showing real virality and potential stickiness as well. what do you think actually makes something sticky? Is it the mechanics?
Competition, is it storytelling or social interaction, surprise, or or something else, or a combination of all these things?
Dan (33:57)
Yeah, a combination, but I I think the this foundation of it is the balance of skill and luck.
So in from that is the stories that unfold because of it. So there's been some several I just crazy w w walk-off games where like you hit a triple. You need this triple. It's going, it's about to land in the triple zone, but it falls on a one. It's a pot fly and you're out. And the I've seen a game that you're down by one, you have two runners on base.
and you just you get that bad one. Or alternatively, there's fielding plays. So basically you flick it, it lands in the zone, the other team can use one of their fielder's dice to flick it at yours and try to knock you into the gutter.
however wherever you land afterwards you're trying to get them into the gutter, but you may knock them onto a home run. So there's these big swinging moments. And the home runs are so they're little coins in the gutter and
Like quite frankly, it's luck it's basically y you can't I never recommend shooting for the home runs. It's ultimately a sh hit that should have been an out becomes a home run. So this was intentionally designed to kind of be a catch-up mechanism. Cause y you'll have these moments where the the littlest kid, he's struggling to keep it in the outfield for a hit, and he keeps going in the gutter. That kid's eventually he's gonna
gonna
he's more likely to hit a home run. He can hit the game-changing home run. So the there's these randomness elements that just create these great memorable swingy moments. So but you you do have to balance that with skill or else it's you know you have no agency in the experience. So it's
Nic (36:05)
What what would you say is the product here? Is it is it the game? Is it the social experience? Is it the the the technical drive for people to be hit that home run or try to become really good at the game? Where do you think is like it w you know, like in in social media, people say like you are the product, right? You know, that if you're getting it for free, then you are the product. in this case, I don't think it's just a physical game. You're you're the what you're producing is again that social aspect, right?
Dan (36:32)
Yeah, I love this question. Yes, the the product is baseball tough shuffle this cocktail table game. But what happens, just the format of being a stand-up cocktail table game. You you get like eight people standing around a table. You just have a different energy than people sitting down playing a board game together. B because they're all standing up, because it's drink-friendly.
people are more boisterous and it it creates great reactions. So all of my most board games they shoot content of the game itself and you have hands moving pieces around. Every bit of content I shoot it's always focused on the players and their reactions. So yes, it's and when I it's hard to frame it in the vertical format
But I try to always get more than one person in the shot. I I try to, you know, sell the the social experience of a fun night out with friends.
Nic (37:43)
Yeah, that's that's incredible. I mean I you know, I I I almost feel like I I need to find one of these bars with this game so I can try it myself.
Dan (37:51)
Yeah, unless you're in Raleigh, it's probably nowhere near you. 'Cause w I mean, I we've only been able to ship a hundred units and o at least half have gone to to homes.
Nic (38:04)
Yeah. And you know, it really does sound like you you hit something that was so core to us in society. You know, like it it resonates so much, right? Because in this in this show, I've interviewed people from chief knowledge officer of NASA, to storytellers, you know, Emmy Award winners from New York Times and so on. and and so much of it boils down to
some primal instinct that we have that really drives human behavior that we've almost forgotten, right? And so like when you talk to like the journalist from New York Times or even the NASA guy, right? They're like, it's about storytelling. Like if you're trying to get people to the moon or a space shuttle to interstellar space, you've got to be able to tell a story because we came from that, like sitting around a campfire telling stories that united us and gave us some sense of purpose and direction and so on. Same thing in NASA it's like if you're gonna get people
On a mission to try to do something that's impossible, it can't be driven by bits and mathematical codes. It's got to be driven by what are we trying to accomplish and what's our unified mission. same thing for telling stories, whether you're writing about genetics in the New York Times, you know, what how do you connect with people? And it sounds like this, the gaming world, at least from your perspective, is very much the same thing. It's how do we connect to a primal urge that we have as humans?
that is gonna draw upon social aspects, competitive aspects, whatever it is, but really tapping into that so we can kind of feel that sense of fulfillment from what kind of drives us from within.
Dan (39:42)
Yeah, and and to expand on the the social aspect, like
you know, I I on the side I was running Gen AI jams, like we weekly creative jams using AI and just like experimenting like how can we use this, whether to to build a you know, commercial or create a virtual band, j just fun ways of doing this. But you know, obviously especially within the creative world, there's a lot of backlash on AI. So i and I you know, I I was well aware of that
But you know, I I was shifting careers, like I wanna learn this new technology because I think that's how I'm gonna have to survive. And j just seeing all the negative feedback, I realized that th there's a need to get back to basics.
It was like g simpler times and so the the whole branding of Unplugged Arcade was based you know the logos based off of you know Victorian era you know British pub and I've got a old Western narrator voice actor you know doing the voices so everything and I've using like you know old bluegrass or you know early swing music just to you know reflect a time
long ago that you know you know we never even experienced it. It's that old. So I I think there's yeah getting back to a very core human element of you know of a of of a time you never knew but you know you have a a connection to
Nic (41:21)
It's amazing. It's it's almost like technology has evolved so quickly and we've embraced this so so adamantly that we race through so much of what makes us human. And now what you're saying is like, wait, hold on a second, guys. We forgot some stuff that's actually pretty important and people are starting they're stopping to actually listen and enjoy that, right? So it's almost like you've really hit a nerve in in the gaming world that
maybe a lot of the technology vendors in this space have completely forgotten. So what what do you think are the biggest threats to this kind of social physical play that you're creating? Is it competition? Is it you know, we talked about manufacturing, actually getting, you know, your pipeline up and running to be able to satisfy demand. I mean, that's a challenge. where where do you see kind of this field evolving and your company specifically evolving over time?
Dan (42:18)
Yeah, I I I think the threat is maybe it's more of a challenge, but what I found like if I want this to, you know, truly be, you know, you know, a classic barroom games, I I need to get into these venues and, you know
your average bar owner doesn't want an innovative game. They want a game that they know people are gonna play and it's gonna drive sales. So what I I the challenge is to
You know, j just to show people will play this and people come back regularly to play it. So building up league play is is going to be core to you know, to sell it into venues and to keep retention and you know to you know, keep expanding the player base. So so that that is gonna be a challenge to build out that infrastructure. But we're we're gonna be yeah, we have some ideas in place that we're gonna start piloting that.
Once we get inventory.
Nic (43:24)
Makes sense. I mean, it's interesting. It's you know, the imagination starts flowing. If you think about it, you're you know, it's interesting. So this is another conversation I had before because I I spend I've spent my entire career in the life sciences and healthcare space, right? And and in healthcare, what's really conflating and confusing sometimes, especially for entrepreneurs, is who's the customer? Because if you're if you have a therapeutic or something like that or a treatment.
Diagnostic, you think it's the patient, right? Because they're the end receiver of this. But then the the the financial customer is probably going to be the payer, like an insurance company. The the functional one is probably gonna be a doctor or some kind of a health system that's applying this, even though the end recipient is gonna be the patient. And so you gotta really think across all these different layers.
And it made me think about that when you were talking about because I'm like thinking about the end user as the customer, which is like the people using it. But the reality is it's like the bar owner. It's the customer. They're the ones that have to buy into this and think, well, I want this because it's gonna be differentiated and it's gonna drive sales. and so you know, my mind while you were saying that, my mind went to all this stuff. And then I thought to myself, like, how cool would it be something like a game like this that also has a feature which is like when you hit a home run, you gotta do a shot that drives more sales for the bar.
I'm sure you've thought about
Dan (44:50)
Y
Nic (44:50)
this.
Dan (44:51)
Yes, many people have asked, so I'm
So this game is gonna be a platform. So there's gonna be different game modes. I just dropped one game mode that adds more challenge. There's going to be the the party league, which will have drinking rules into but I'm not gonna say what that drink is. In fact, actually, with that video, I've got all scripted out that I'm gonna get kids to act in it or to star in it, and we're gonna give them all like these vintage non-alcoholic.
alcoholic drinks like you know sunny dee or knee high soda and so yes we we we are yeah promoting you know I guess you know drunkenness but we can you know inspire how to party with this
Nic (45:43)
So you know, and and I don't want to gloss over the Lego part because you spend so much time there and presumably it it shaped how you're thinking about gaming these days. What are the enduring lessons that you learn through your time at Lego that you can share about gaming, about the psychology of gamers, about innovation maybe in the gaming space? Like you said, right? 20,000 video games a year.
really, really hard to become the signal in that noise. So, you know, what are the kind of elements that you've taken away on just innovation in general or psychology that you've shaped over the years and your experience in this field?
Dan (46:26)
I think
Part of it is just like finding the niche. I I could have gone off and, you know, done another board game and tried to pitch it to publishers and try to stand out with, you know, hundreds of other people doing it. So but yeah, t finding that niche to play in. So when I was at Lego, we were doing a a lot of stuff with augmented reality. You know, kids were leaving toys at a younger and younger age and going to these digital experiences.
So if we could bring some digital experiences into the physical stuff, we could engage them longer. So so I I think there's yeah, I I think a big lesson learned about like finding that niche that you can work into do something different that no one else is doing.
Nic (47:18)
Yeah, that's fascinating. well, this has been super interesting, Dan. I mean, this has been a conversation that's been in the on the on the you know on the wait list for about a year now when I first asked you to join. And of course you had to go through a whole bunch of different kind of transitions before you could officially speak about this stuff. But I really appreciate it. and obviously you've had such a tremendous impact. Could you share by any chance, like what what did you work on at Lego? Are there a specific
products, tools, toys, assemblies or whatever it is that you're like, my you know, my fingerprints are all over this thing.
Dan (47:57)
Yes, okay, I'll go reverse chronological. So I I wrapped up the concept lead on Lego Pokemon with their their new smart play system. So
Nic (48:07)
Okay.
Dan (48:07)
a Lego brick that has lights, acceleromers, all sorts of fun sensors and stuff that it it can play with the kid. So it understands how they play and can react to it. So that was super fun and I was able to see that project we started off as a team of three and I was able to see that.
downstream. So that was a great learning experience to see the whole process. prior to that, Lego City Missions had an interactive app that would help to
Get kids to build creatively who wouldn't normally. So basically you had an app that would provide them a story, and that in story would inspire them to build. So you're going on a adventure in space, but you you you get hit by you know some space debris, so now you have to build new wings on it. And then you go to this curated bag of bricks and you open it up and you br you know build your own wings. So that's
That was a really fun one to build the creativity aspect and then augmented reality we launched a couple apps. there was Lego Video, which was a a music
playing app where you could play with music in real time. before that Lego Hidden Side, which was a ghost catching theme, where if you look at your Lego set with the phone, it becomes haunted and ghosts start flying around it and then there's games to catch or you know, catch ghosts and yeah, Lego fusion before that, which was using computer vision to
Build, you know, simple Lego stuff and scan it into your your little mobile game.
Nic (49:57)
That's super cool. And and you know, just you know, briefly, I guess, Lego went through a resurgence, right? It it never went away, but it seems to be have been like always part of the fabric. And then I don't know, over the last 10 years it just took off. It seems like everything is Lego movie, Lego this, Lego that. And it could also be me, right? I mean, maybe I paid attention a lot when I was a little kid, and then as I became more of an adult, I stopped paying attention, and then now I'm paying attention because my kids are playing with it. But it just seems to have gone through like this like.
steady state and then it just took off like ten years ago or so is or is it just me?
Dan (50:30)
No, Lego's doing incredibly well lately. So th
Nic (50:33)
Yeah, that's right.
Dan (50:34)
they are easily the largest toy company. I don't know if they were, but they're often number one on rep tracker. So, you know, number one brand. their adult audience has grown crazy. So i w one of the coolest success stories is their botanical lines. So it's Lego Flowers.
So women who never touched a Lego brick as kids, they weren't Lego girls growing up. They're now Lego fans build so they they didn't have that affinity. And yeah, when they launched several of the the top sets, you know, were were Lego botanicals that year. It just yeah, I think that's just such a fascinating story right there.
Nic (51:26)
Yeah, what what do you think drove this resurgence? Is it was it a a fundamental change in the way that Lego was doing things or was it a societal thing?
Dan (51:36)
Yeah, I think there's there's some partnerships. I I mean I don't wanna get too deep into it, but there's a lot more adults, you know it's cool to play with toys these days, you know, to to be a kidult, kid alt, which a weird term. It is normalized. Like geek culture has been normalized and it it it's okay to like stuff you did as a kid and I I think it's actually, you know, become cool to to like the same things you liked as
a kid. So
Nic (52:07)
Yeah.
Dan (52:07)
yeah, there's the shift in a culture, shift in the brand, shift in the products.
Nic (52:13)
Well, it's it's it's fascinating. And it in this field is I don't know anything about it to the extent professionally, but obviously I grew up playing games. and again, this has been such a great conversation and really insightful for me. But Dan, I always finish with the same question. you're nowhere done with your career. It sounds like a whole new chapter just opened up and it's going really, really fast and fiercely. But if you could zoom forward into fast forward into some place in your career where you can
Pause
and imagine yourself looking back at everything that you've built either up to today or where you anticipate going in the near future. What would be the best case scenario? What would that look like? You know, the impact or accomplishments or changes in the world of play that would make you feel like you've achieved that full impact, that would give you that sense of satisfaction.
Dan (53:01)
Yeah, I love that question. I I I think my goal is to build a social network in real life.
So yeah y you've got all your online stuff at the cost of our real networks. So I w I want to build unplugged arcade into a community. I I I wanna have you know, after I have several games, I wanna have spaces where you have different games, you're running tournaments, you have your you know, your big championships and it's just a meetup space, you know, to socialize and play and
get boisterous and you know, just have fun together and it's not limited to audience. Like th the world country seems so divided these days. But I think if you actually get together with people who you may not agree with on everything and you just interact with them, you'll find things in common.
So I I I wanna break down a a lot of the walls that have been built and largely through social media and bring people together.
Nic (54:16)
That's fantastic. Well, I I second that. I I think that we definitely don't have enough social interaction. I I hear all the time about people saying that they feel like they don't have enough friends or that's at least a general sentiment. so so with that again, Dan, thank you so much for being on the show. I wish you the best of luck with Unplugged Arcade. I think what you're doing is phenomenal, and clearly a lot of other people do as well. So thank you again for your time and and it's been great having you here UnNatural Selection.
Dan (54:45)
Yeah, thrilled to chat with you, Nick. Thanks for the chance to talk.
