Those Who Laugh Last: Entertainment Comedy • Veep & Seinfeld / David Mandel
Those Who Laugh Last
What makes great comedy survive?
In Episode 54, Nic speaks with Emmy Award-winning writer, director, and producer David Mandel – the creative force behind Veep, Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Saturday Night Live, and more — about the hidden systems behind some of the most influential comedy ever created.
From the legendary Seinfeld writers’ room to running Veep during one of the most politically chaotic periods in modern history, David shares insights into how comedy evolves, how writers compete for originality, and why audiences become harder and harder to surprise over time.
The conversation explores the creative arms race inside Hollywood, the pressure of cultural relevance, collaboration under extreme deadlines, and the fine balance between innovation and familiarity in storytelling.
They also discuss satire, audience psychology, creative failure, the economics of entertainment, and why the best comedy often emerges from intense structure rather than chaos.
This episode is a masterclass in creativity, iteration, and surviving in industries where attention is the ultimate scarce resource.
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Nic (00:00)
David, welcome to UnNatural Selection. Thank you for being here.
David (00:03)
thank you for having me.
Nic (00:04)
I'm really, ⁓ you know, my curiosity for our conversation is going to naturally go towards just amazing shows and episodes that I just grew up watching. But for the spirit of this ⁓ show, we're going to focus on the innovation and the competition that goes into making these stellar shows, these ⁓ legendary ⁓ episodes and so on that society and people still talk about today. But before we dive into that stuff, I always like to level set with context.
for what drove you to do this in the first place, the extraordinary work and the body of work that you've done throughout your career. So can you please tell us, David, what need or impact drives your work?
David (00:44)
I know I sort of, you would let me know this question was coming, but that doesn't make it any easier. ⁓ I guess in its purest, most simplest form is to just be funny, just to be funny, ⁓ just to make, to make people laugh. Although I will preface that with sort of a parentheses, which is to say the right kind of laugh, because there are bad laughs and there are good laughs and there are sort of everything in between. So I guess.
to be genuinely funny and to get the right kind of laugh, I guess, is the best way I can explain it. Look, no one loves a cheap joke as much as I ⁓ do. I don't mind crude stuff. So it's like there are exceptions to every rule, but there are just some laughs I'm not interested in. I know that sounds complicated, ⁓ it's rare you don't meet a comedy writer that isn't a bit of
a humor snob and we all make our own sort of lines in the sand and there's just some you know there are shows lots of people like that don't like there's there are laughs that people like that I don't like so it's just it's I don't know you you know it when you see it kind
Nic (01:52)
Yeah. Is it similar to comedy in general where you start developing your persona, you develop a voice? Because as I think about Seinfeld and as I think about Curb Your Enthusiasm, ⁓ very different, but a common kind of genre almost, right? And almost a voice behind the
David (02:26)
I'm there. I'm just a fan at home. You know, when you look at what other shows were like, and it was usually, you know,
overweight husband and sort of slightly good looking wife arguing about taking out the trash for 21 minutes and 30 seconds. mean, literally, excuse me, literally nothing happened. Literally you would cut from the living room back to the living room as they would continue the argument. They would come in the room arguing, they'd go out the room arguing.
and ultimately, you know, someone would take the trash out because they felt bad. You know, what Seinfeld was doing at the time was so that was that that that sort of formula was so anathema to Seinfeld. And then it's different with Larry. But again, it's the same thing. It's to it's it's to be as funny as humanly possible within the sort of the constraints of of what TV could be, but also.
just so against what passes for regular television and therefore changed all the television that came after it. Like, you know, the journey to like the single camera sitcom starts with Seinfeld, even though Seinfeld is a multicam in front of an audience, as those shows got more complicated because Larry wanted them and Jerry wanted them more complicated, more story, more interest.
four stories, things happening, things bumping into each other. They became like mini movies and all of a sudden you're shooting on the New York street. You're going into locations and things of that nature. And so all of a sudden you're still doing stuff in front of the audience, but it's, it's opening up. And then very much that sort of sets the stage for sort of single camera sitcom. So Seinfeld not only changes what, what we think about a sitcom, but then changes all the sitcoms after it. And Curb kind of jumps in there too.
and does the same thing. And I guess sometimes it's just with humor in the sense of like, know, Larry, and it's one of the great things if I think about great comedians, Larry never worries about like being unlikable. He doesn't worry about like how he's gonna look or how he's gonna seem. And he just is worrying about is it fucking funny? And that's all he cares about. By the way, same with Julie Louis Dreyfus. Is it fucking funny? That's all that matters. Is it funny? And yeah.
okay. Yeah, it's a little crude, but is it funny? And that really, I mean, you either get it or you don't, I guess is what I would say.
Nic (05:05)
Yeah, and my mind goes in so many different directions and I don't know where to start. guess maybe the place to start is at the start. How do you get into this? So you mentioned you weren't there when Seinfeld, when they came up with the concept, but then eventually you found yourself there. ⁓ How do you find yourself all of sudden writing for a top show like Seinfeld? And then obviously then you go to Veep and Curve Your Enthusiasm and now your career is set, but at some point you have to break it in.
David (05:33)
No, you definitely have to break in. should preface, I guess, this entire conversation, maybe this entire episode with the notion of a lot of what we're talking about. I'm not even sure if it still like works because the entertainment industry is so broken right now. I mean, as we're recording this, whatever it is, February 3rd, you know, we're about to lose another studio one way or another. Warner Brothers one way or another is going to be part of Netflix or it's going to be part of Paramount. So we are losing Warner Brothers, which is insane.
We lost Fox a couple of years ago. ⁓ you know, the, the, the grand move to all streaming, you know, started with this idea, like we're all going to fight and make shows. And then everybody just kind of went, Nope, you won Netflix. give up. And so obviously there are still some fine shows, but you know, just less than 10 years ago, we were talking about peak TV and we're not talking about that anymore. And it's all been.
you know, killed by, you know, tech companies and the, in the name of, you know, mergers and acquisitions. So my, my beginnings and a lot of what I think, and a lot of what I learned, I don't even know if it's applicable anymore. It's not to, I mean, people can turn the show off if they want, but hopefully they'll stick around. But I guess the real truth is, you know, I was a bit of a comedy nerd just growing up. had a lot of early on, I had my mother's like albums from the sixties.
So I had things that perhaps the average child was not listening to like ⁓ Vaughn Meader's First Family and like Mort Dahl at the Hungry Eye and some of that stuff. And then somewhere in there, Steve Martin, Wild and Crazy Guy and Woody Allen's standup comic. so, and Eddie Murphy, course. And so that and Saturday Night Live and then Letterman, these were sort of the foundations and then taking a trip to the UK and
Blackadder and Monty Python and stuff. you know, these things were sort of as a comedy nerd, was sort of not exactly collecting, but collecting to listen. I want to read that. want to, it turns out one of the mind, I think I wrote a book. I'm going to track that book down. ⁓ look at this. I'm going to track that down. You know, so I was a comedy nerd, but no real sense that like, it was a job. Like it just, no, just didn't put two and two together that humans did it. ⁓
But when I did, ended up, I went to Harvard and when I got to Harvard, I was very aware of the Harvard Lampoon and its sort of role in the foundation of the national Lampoon. But then also that, you know, some of the writers at Saturday Night Live had come from the Harvard Lampoon. So, at the time or soon thereafter, there were writers from the Lampoon on Letterman at Spy Magazine, some of the co-founders of Spy and the early writers.
⁓ all of sudden the Simpsons comes on. It's the funniest show on television and a load of those guys are Harvard lampoon guys. so somewhat quickly, I do start to realize there might be a pathway here, ⁓ or that there's the possibility thereof. And then that's really, I mean, I basically treated Harvard, you know, a little bit like, ⁓ you know, I might as well have been taking like, you know, ⁓
Like auto mechanic classes. was really teaching, you I was really not there for Harvard. I was there for the lampoon. And I was hoping and wanting to go into comedy writing. And, know, I remember even during like, ⁓ Gosh, like my senior year getting like a, you know, I don't know, not an email, I guess a phone call from, ⁓ from a producer or somebody who worked at like in living color. Did I want to submit stuff? And so the notion of, want to do this.
and the possibility of doing it was all kind of in and around there. The Lampoon did a TV show in the summer of, between the summer of 91, the Lampoon did their own TV show called MTV, Give Me Back My Life, which was a fake 10th anniversary documentary about the founding of MTV. And we did that at Comedy Central.
And I followed, I worked on it and then followed the production down to New York City to work on it, to sort of be on set and whatnot. Got to know the Comedy Central people and got to know some other people like Al Franken, who was an advisor to Comedy Central. And then the following summer, Al was hosting comedy coverage at the Democratic and Republican convention. And they invited me to be a writer on that along with Billy Kimball, who was a producer and also a Lampoon guy.
Nic (10:20)
on the Democratic National Convention.
David (10:22)
Exactly.
Yep, exactly. Not the not the real one, the comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. ⁓ Which was basically we had the feed and we would just kind of comment on the feed, but also do different things like Dan Quayle's wife, Marilyn Quayle, and her sister had written a political potboiler about a young congressman, a very conservative congressman from Indiana, ⁓ you know, not named Dan Quayle, but it might as well have been like, you know,
fan Galel or something. But, ⁓ and he of course, like saves Cuba and the United States. It's a hilarious book. And Al would read from the book. He'd read to children. We did puppet shows. We did live reenactments and we were sort of filling time a little bit, ⁓ I, I almost like a telethon in a way, but I worked on that. And at the end of that summer, ⁓ Al said, want to, I want to bring you over to Saturday night live. And I followed, there and you know, he was certainly a mentor.
⁓ for me, and then I got to work with some of the greats at SNL like Jim Downey. So again, it's all a process and you pick stuff up as you go, but I guess that was sort of my, my pathway, but I ended up staying at SNL for about three years, which at the time was a very pretty healthy amount to stay at SNL. People had stayed longer, people had stayed shorter, but it is funny. Like nowadays where there isn't really anywhere great to go. If that makes any sense.
people stay at SNL for like 10 years because where are you going? What show do you want to go work on? You know what I mean? Like there was a process. I left SNL and I ultimately went to Seinfeld. There was a somewhat of a logic to it, but if there's no Seinfeld, where are you going? So anyway, again, the way the business has changed. Somehow I think I answered a question in there somewhere.
Nic (12:10)
Speaking of change.
You definitely did it was it was really how you got into this this field in the first place because it just seems like I can imagine how many people first of all how many people think they're funny But they're really not that funny and then and then there's a difference between being funny and writing funny, know You have to be able to convey it and put it down into words so that somebody else can then say it on screen and it still comes across as funny And so, know, I would just imagine that like how you get into this, know a premiere show like Seinfeld and Veep, know how
What's that path? It's not like there's, you know, thousands of writers for these shows. So, you know, but you definitely answer that question. But then as you as you talked a little bit about the the evolution in a way of this field and you mentioned that in the beginning also with some of the things that made you laugh when you were a kid, you know, what was funny 20 years ago is, you know, kind of funny now. But what was funny 50 years ago is not that funny. So like humor evolves. Right.
David (13:11)
But I mean, I'll put an episode of the honeymooners. I'll put a great episode of the honeymooners up against anything. I'll put a great, you know, Ricky Lucy, you know, I love Lucy thing up against anyone. You know, when I was a kid, I grew up in New York City and, you know, Channel 11, which was WPIX, which I think now is, I don't know what it is now, but Channel 5 was...
an independent company and I think that's Fox now and I don't know 11, you know, these were independents. so basically at 11 PM at night, Channel 5 would air MASH and I used it and I loved it particularly the early, the first couple of seasons of MASH, the Trapper John, ⁓ Henry sort of more, Frank Burns, the more kind of chaotic, ⁓ the more
I guess, anarchy filled episodes that I loved. And Channel 11 did the odd couple at 11 p.m. and then the honeymooners at 11.30. And that one two punch of the, I mean, again, I'll put an odd couple episode up against anything. You know, the simplicity, but also at the same time, you know, again, is, you know, the sit in sitcom. They do have good stories in there despite being somewhat simplistic. And I do think those things hold up.
It's other stuff, I think, maybe perhaps, whether it's that the situation is thinner or perhaps not as believable. By the way, not to go a little further back, which was something I watched ⁓ in reruns, like the Phil Silver Show, with him as like Bilko, I mean, that stuff holds up. mean, again, it's very simple, but great performances. Where the stuff that...
maybe perhaps doesn't hold up. Like I am charmed by the Munster family. I still have a place in my heart for.
Nic (15:04)
I didn't
But there's a nostalgia there for you, right? So if you show it to a kid today, then you're what is this thing?
David (15:12)
I'm not sure a kid would laugh at it in the same way I did or thought I did.
Nic (15:17)
Yeah, yeah, so so, you know society evolves and and you know for a good reason, right? So what was funny? Like you said, there are some gems that you could kind of project forward But generally like when I see a comedian from 30 years ago They may say something funny, but it might not be as funny as I would think of a Chappelle today and so like, know like everything else that evolves right and maybe as More media happens society just becomes more sophisticated in what they watch. I don't really know what it is, but there must be
inflection points where you you as a writer having been in this field something new happens that you're like this changes everything ⁓ you know like a sign field you know changes everything
David (15:56)
I mean, Seinfeld definitely changed every show that kind of came after it changed. mean, if you look at what was going on on network television post Seinfeld, all of a sudden shows are in New York city. All of sudden shows are in apartments. And let's go one step further. Most of the shows that are on in the sort of wake of Seinfeld usually have at least somebody that played one of Jerry's girlfriends or like an actor that was on an episode of Seinfeld. mean like,
just look at the guest cast on other sitcoms. Somebody would come on Seinfeld and then they would basically book all the other shows and they would pop up on all the other shows because they were on Seinfeld. So again, there's that going on. But then, you know, in terms of like quote unquote society, you know, look, I mean, I was the victim, if you will, of, know, I guess part of the reason we ended Veep was because the Trump presidency changed the rules of politics. And when the rules of politics changed,
so many of the rules of Veep were just sort of almost being left in the dust. know, so much of the show, and I've talked about this in other places, but so much of the show was about sort of Selena as a politician, usually, you know, doing something and then getting embarrassed and trying to fix it and making it worse. And, you know, as we put on the show sort of, you know, hoisted on her own, well,
The joke was on her own retard, but the larger point being is as shame left American politics, as there's no sense of shame, as there's no sense of apologizing, as when it almost becomes better to embrace your faults and just go, ha ha ha, I'm smart for doing this. Like so many VEEP episodes almost stopped making sense. And it was sort of all we could do.
to kind of figure out a finale and get off the stage just because again, like just society changed. And you go back and you watch, and these are shows I love, but go back and watch the West Wing. And it seems like Star Trek. It looks like it's taking place in the future of outer space or something, or in the 1800s, because it just seems.
so different than the politics. If an 18 year old, a 16 year old were to watch an episode of West Wing, what must they think of it? Because you're just looking at it going, there's no version of politics that this is. yeah.
Nic (18:31)
Yeah, there's a, just like in comedy, what makes it funny is that there's an element of truth to it. And something like Veep, it was the absurd. You like you watch it and it's like, can you imagine if really the White House was running like that? And then all of a sudden the Trump administration comes around and normalizes that. So it's no longer funny.
David (18:50)
I also think these shows almost sometimes are better when they're opposites. And I guess what I mean by that is when I guess like Bush was president, the West Wing sort of flourished in the sort of the dream of an articulate, well-spoken, deep thinking president who works for the people. ⁓
And Veep, think, partially flourished because it was a lot of under the Obama administration where things seemed good. So here's this hateful person that seems different. And then when all of a sudden it flips and you have this hateful person, as far as I'm concerned in the White House, it's almost like I kind of almost want a West Wing like show that's a little more hopeful than a Veep where it's sort of like it's hitting the same points in a weird way.
Nic (19:39)
It's actually a really good point. in a way, it's almost like some of these shows fill in a gap or balance out a gap that we're kind of missing.
David (19:48)
If only it was this or what if it were that, I do think there's an element of that.
Nic (19:53)
So when you're thinking about your next show, whether it be starting a show or characters within a show, how much does the social consciousness or the modern times or political climate or whatever, how much does that influence how you shape a character?
David (20:09)
I mean, it definitely influences because it can't not influence, but at the same time, if that's all you've got, then you've kind of got nothing. Do know what I mean? There's a thing, hopefully this will make sense as I try and explain it. There's a thing which is not laughter, which is sort of, you see it a lot of times on talk shows and it's not a fun thing for, as far as I think most comedy writers are concerned, which is, ⁓ I think Jim Downey called it like, ⁓
like claptor instead of laughter, where it's sort of like the person says something that like, like a talk show host says something about Donald Trump. It's not a funny joke. Maybe it's just pointing out something that Trump did, or it's almost baldly just going, isn't he dumb? And all of sudden you're getting applause from an audience of like-minded people. It's not a joke and it's not funny. And so if you were to put a show together, I think,
that was solely, I guess, for lack of a better word, based on like worrying about like, I don't know, you know, like, as I said, they're sort of like a version of what you're talking about, where everybody is solely defined by, he's a conservative and choose this and that. don't know, I don't think you'd have anything.
Nic (21:18)
It's two one-dimensional characters,
David (21:21)
But at the same time, I think to deny it is also, I guess, old fashioned. That when I think of sort of the sitcoms, the overly simplistic sitcoms, when I think of the multicam sitcoms of, know, husband fighting with wife, you wish that broth or that stew was a little thicker. And I wish I knew, you know, I wrote a pilot with friends of mine a couple of years ago. It never went, we were never able to cast it.
But the gist of it was the show was called The Mistake. It actually came out of an observation which was we realized we knew a lot of people that basically, for lack of a better word, a younger brother or younger sister that was significantly younger, like 16 years younger.
Nic (22:11)
I have one, yeah. Yeah, okay.
David (22:13)
And like a friend of ours who were like, remember like trying to get ready for junior prom and my mother gave birth. And it was just like, okay, that's sort of hilarious. So the idea was the mistake and the gist of it was a couple sort of ready to sort of start there. The last kid is for lack of a better word off to college or I can't remember graduating college and about to sort of, you know,
embark on the next phase of their life if you will vacations and we're going to do this we're going to get a cabin and the things you think about doing and they get pregnant and decide to have the baby and the show is not about the pregnancy you can we actually kind of do that at the beginning of the episode and then just jump right to the delivery because we really wanted it to be about not pregnancy but about life with this baby being the old parents at the nursery school.
being the old parents and the birthing class, cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, long story short, where I was going with this is there was a moment again in the pilot and at the time this was for CBS. It's now just its own script. ⁓ But you know, it's sort of like they're having the baby and there was a line where the father character goes, we're Catholic, right? And it was sort of an attempt at, well, sort of an abortion joke.
And needless to say, you'd have thought I had set everybody on fire at CBS and it was sort of a no-go. And you just kind of go, well, that's the problem. That's the problem with modern, you know what I mean? It's sort of like, they were always going, we want another Seinfeld. Well, we'd have done that on Seinfeld or a version of that. Now, again, I realize what I'm talking about is not very Seinfeld, but I'm just saying.
It's the kind of joke we would do on Seinfeld or certainly on curb or talk about it, or I don't know, whatever you want to say. But the fact that all of a sudden you're making a multi-cam and go, oh, we can't do that, whatever, whatever. It's again, it's why these things have, know, again, fat guy arguing with pretty wife about the trash for 21 minutes. So yeah.
Nic (24:21)
Well, you know, and I guess to that point, ⁓ you know, now we're dealing with woke, which there's cancel culture and all kinds of crazy stuff going on out there. And, know, you mentioned the word retard before, you know, when we grew up, hard is a different word.
David (24:32)
I retard. Well,
I was trying to at least make the pun of hitard.
Nic (24:39)
I only bring it up because growing up that was a very common word, right? mean, it's still in my vocabulary because I grew up thinking about it. It's not like I use it in public, but it's like it's it's pretty you know, I you know up to like my 20s. It was a very common thing and so it just makes me think now as a writer and you're obviously as a writer you're pushing the envelope because it's at that it's at that.
gray area in society, which is like, it's uncomfortable to talk about it, but it makes us laugh. It's not so over the edge and it's like hurtful, but it's also not so safe that it's boring. It's somewhere in between, but that also overlaps with sensitivities with people that have these days around things.
David (25:16)
We did a version I think on Veep. think it made the final cut, know, we're basically, you know, think Jonah said the R word as we now say, and someone said, you're not allowed to say retarded anymore. And he of course responded, that is so retarded. And then you can't say that. Well, and he kind of then kind of ended up pretty gay. And of course it's, you know, and again, he is
no one is saying he's good we are saying he's kind of an idiot. But if you're not pushing and again I'm not saying pushing the envelope that scene had a reason it wasn't written to say the R word it had a reason within the show but certainly when you are. don't know when you're in a moment you go or takes you and to not go there or to worry about what other people are going to be offended by I think certainly you know.
One of the things I always point to on Curb, which I remain, I guess, super proud of, which is we did an episode, it was the season premiere of one of the seasons, ⁓ gosh, the sixth season maybe, I'm sorry, but basically it was about at the time, if you can remember, ⁓ Amazon, especially when you would buy something on Amazon, it used to come,
in the crazy plastic casing. You know what I'm talking about? So we'd cut a box, then you'd open the box and there'd be this insane plastic and you'd be trying to cut it with a scissor and you couldn't get it open. And eventually there were some, there were like tabs and of course now it's completely gone. So it's irrelevant, but the episode starts with, I think maybe it was a gift of a label. I know it wasn't a label maker. I don't remember what the gift was. Long story short,
Larry's got the, got the gift. can't open it. He then complains to Susie and Jeff who gave him the gift. And they're like, you know, did you do the tabs? There's no tabs, you know, and then finally, I Susie goes like, well then use a box cutter. And Larry, Larry goes, and I think we wrote this in, like Larry says a box cutter. Who am I? Mohammed Atta? And I think it's one of the first nine 11 jokes.
after 9-11 and only Larry would do that, but it's also incredible. And it now doesn't seem like quite the big deal, but it's still funny joke. You can't ever hear the word box cutter without thinking about that. And I guess that to me to, if someone said, you can't do that, ⁓ and you know, you're.
Nic (27:47)
sure.
we
are. Yeah. And I'm sure eventually, you know, you go to the staff and you review it and you have conversations and then you decide as a team, is this, should we push the envelope this far? Or is that going over the edge? ⁓
David (28:13)
I
would also argue that that is, know, that the beauty of Larry is, know, the buck stops with him and he wanted to do it. you know, look, sometimes you do multiple takes and try different things. You know, that's part of the role of being a showrunner is to just go, I don't really actually care what everybody else thinks. I think it's funny. This is what we're going to do. And there are those times where, yeah, OK, someone else doesn't like it. All right. Well, I don't care. You that's fine. I would much rather be loved or hated than be like, that's fine. There is nothing worse than that's fine.
Nic (28:35)
In your
⁓ it definitely doesn't seem like you've done that. mean, with the shows and the work that you've done again, these are just legendary shows that have redefined the industry, even for as simple as they were. Like Seinfeld was like a show about nothing. And like you said, there are these streams that weave in and out. You can kind of see them and then they all come together at the end in a really, really funny way. from the beginning, it just seems like, OK, it's it's hard to tell exactly where this episode is going to go. And it felt like
⁓ Curb your enthusiasm felt a little bit like that as well. And it was just pleasantly surprising to see everything come together almost like a jigsaw puzzle at the end.
David (29:20)
Coming together is always very enjoyable and that jigsaw puzzle too, which by the way makes both shows ultimately not about nothing because they're intricately outlined. So they're really truly about something. But more importantly, just the sense that in any given scene, the conversation could go anywhere. I mean, I guess a little bit like this in the sense of, you know, and again on Curb where there's an element of the improv, the full improv, because they're not working from scripts, they're working from outlines. So it really could go anywhere.
Nic (29:49)
is that true? didn't know that. So Curb Your Enthusiasm was mainly like Adlib.
David (29:54)
Well, full outlines of story and what has to happen in scenes and important lines. But in terms of like the high, how are you? Like a lot of that kind of stuff. it led to really great stuff. mean, there's a famous, I'm not but I remember one time they were in the middle of a scene in a coffee, in a cafe. And I think legitimately as happens in real life.
Larry took a sip and then put it down and then realized like, this your water or is this my water? this is not, there's no script. This is literally happening. And it's, and you've done that with your friends and then it happens. It's like, now we've got to new waters. Can we get new waters? And the scene just kept going and it's, it's fantastic, but it had that realness to it. And that, and I think it's that sort of real conversation, if you will, that is missing from these other shows. And again, don't get me wrong.
you know, when a sitcom is sort of great, like a, again, mash odd couple, a cheers certainly, which is just brilliant. I don't mind that it's set up, laugh, set up, laugh, set up, laugh, set up, laugh. I mean, I really appreciate it. But when the notion that like, there's two guys sitting in a coffee shop and kind of going, you know, you know, I don't really like rainbows or I'm making, I'm just making something up.
Like that's just great because that feels, mean, you know, for me, felt like, and I think part of why, you know, show I wanted to work on a show I wanted to, I wanted to watch and then wanted to work on is because this sounds like the same nonsensical conversation that I'm having with my knucklehead friends in a coffee shop, a different coffee shop. I'm in, I'm at the tramway diner at 1 a.m. because they have great black and white milkshakes.
and I'm sitting there with my friends and we're just talking about whatever nonsense and girls and whatever, whatever, whatever. And that felt like real life in a way that sitcoms weren't necessarily capturing real life. Like, hinted at
Nic (31:54)
I totally agree.
But they didn't catch No, I remember. mean, there were so many episodes of Seinfeld where ⁓ they just came across as something you can relate to. You know, like even if it was like the muffin top, you know, episode, which is like, yeah, totally. Like the bottom of muffins, just they're horrible. It's the top that has all the meat. And it's for as simple and, you know, trivial.
as that is and it became like all encompassing in that show that's part of the absurd which is like now they're obsessed with this but it was just so funny to see it unfold in front of you.
David (32:27)
And so much of Seinfeld and especially Curb, or should say both of those shows, the best ideas, the best ideas I ever were like, was a part of were just things out of either my life or things that I stole from friends lives. But you know, we walked around, Larry did too, but we all walked around with like a pad of paper in our pocket. Now we have our phones, but you know, it's like, oh, that just happened. Like, look what's happening to me in the bank. I better write that down. And so all the great episodes.
And by the way, when people used to apply to work at the show, we would really just ask for ideas. And you know, you'd be handed a list of 20 ideas and 19 of them would just feel like bad sitcoms and you get to number 20 and it would be something about, I don't know, getting into a fight in a stereo store. And it's like that happened. Right. And he was like, yeah, you know, like, is this the only good idea on the list? And you sort of, so the reality, and then I think that's true. You know, again, VEEP is different, but I will simply say,
there are things that happened to me. Like I had a, worked with a boss once who really kind of, whoever the last person they spoke to was sort of what the boss ended up sort of saying and doing. And that became a, episode of like sort of Selena of people trying to be the last person to speak to her, to influence her, to make a certain kind of decision. And so again, a real life thing, and by the way,
We also would, you know, real life history stuff too of like, you know, I think it was, ⁓ I think it was Sergeant Shriver that did not want to head up the Peace Corps and Lyndon Johnson just kind of announced it. And we did a similar thing with Selena and Tom James. ⁓ And, you know, again, it's like taking from real history, but again, and there's something about that reality that I just think makes
the good shows great when there's a touch of reality to them, whatever that is.
Nic (34:21)
And ⁓ I know that there are elements, and we talked about it just now, but you do take ⁓ elements from your personal life and your worldviews. end up on the screen. Right. I mean, you and I talked before this. were introduced by Duncan, a mutual friend and family member, and ⁓ he let me know that, for example, they show Bizarro Jerry with man hands. That's personal, allegedly loosely connected to reality.
David (34:47)
My, my, my, this is written about actually, oddly enough, it was written about in our Reddit wedding announcement. thank you, New York times. but, basically my wife grew up on a farm and she, and if you asked her what she doesn't like about her body and most, you know, I think everybody has something and maybe we joke that women have it a little more or to think about it more, but she didn't like her hands. the word she always used was far me because she grew up on a, on a farm and her hands, she's thought her hands were kind of.
rough from like having grown up on a farm. They're not giant, they're not anything. She just thought they were kind of rough and kind of whatever. I took that idea and I turned that into man hands and then the idea of casting like a big teamsters hands on a very beautiful woman, that takes the idea that much further whatever. But yeah, no, you know, there it is basically. So yeah.
Nic (35:40)
Obviously with your career, you've seen so many ⁓ great successes and then you talked about the mistake which you guys wrote. ⁓ Although I'm curious about it, actually even before I go down that path, you said you co-wrote the mistake with a friend of yours.
David (35:56)
Yeah, actually, a married couple, friend of mine, the Silveris, Scott and Shana Solerri.
Nic (36:01)
So how does that discovery or creation process work? Do you typically work in partnership with people when you have an idea or do you go off?
David (36:11)
I've worked with partners. I used to have two writing partners, Jeff Schaffer and Alec Berg. We did a lot of movie stuff together. We did some Seinfeld episodes together. We worked on Curb Your Enthusiasm together. So I'm very comfortable in a partnership. I've done stuff alone too. So it works both ways. The honest answer there was it was at a time where I think we were all just sort of sitting around bored and we were like, let's come up with a show. It'd be fun to do one. And we wanted to come up with, I mean, I'll be very honest.
We were trying to come up with something that would be a really good and interesting, I guess, if you will, multi-cam sitcom. We wanted to kind of go back to the idea of a live performance in front of an audience. It's the kind of thing that they don't do a lot of, but we wanted to do it. We wanted to see it. ⁓ And so honestly, the notion of like, let's do it together was out of just sort of like we were sitting around kind of talking, but.
It works all different ways, I guess is the honest answer.
Nic (37:09)
Yeah. And so then when you are working on something like this, as a writer, what makes a concept strong enough that a studio will support it and an audience will love it? Do you find like a magic sauce or something that feels and trickles
David (37:25)
I mean, I don't know if there's some magical whatever. do think, I mean, you you hate to go, everything needs a gimmick, but I do think, you you could reduce it in its simplicity to the gimmick. And I did think the notion of the mistake, older kid, young, ⁓ I'm sorry, older family, older kids, young baby, there's a gimmick to it that you kind of not, like the second I say it to you, I mean, this happened in live action here.
I sorta told you the idea and you perked up at the notion of the idea because of your own experience, it made you think of things, you can imagine a lot of things, you know, some of where we were going with it was just the stuff like, I just remember even like with my parents, where like the way they used to put a baby down has radically changed. You now you don't, there's no crib buffers because you know, whatever, and you don't put anything in the crib.
And of course all my mother did was buy us stuff to put in the crib. like, don't do that anymore. You know what I mean? And so just like that kind of stuff, it was just so, I guess, ripe. And it just, was one of those things where the second you said it, you could imagine, I mean, apparently years ago, I think it was maybe Warren Littlefield, when you would pitch him, he was always sort of like, okay, that you'd pitch him sort of what you thought the show was. And then you would be, and then he would ask you like,
what's the 50th episode or something like that you have like whatever and there was just something when you heard this idea that you could imagine a 100 episodes which used to be the magical number for reruns to go into syndication I you know that's that ship has sailed but the larger point is you could imagine many seasons of the show and I you know and I couldn't tell you why you just do it just it was a strong enough idea it's like. You know when you take that.
physics class in high school and they teach you to make a bridge in physics class and then they put weights on it to see whose bridge will hold the most. And you kind of learn that there are certain structures that just empirically will hold more weight. this is one of those things, but I'm not sure there's any magical rule to it. There's no like, just do this and there's your idea. But one of the biggest problems is
Certainly as I read other people's pilots or whether it's as a favor or maybe something is sent to me, would I like to help out on it? And again, this is true not only for pilots and show ideas, but it's also true for stories in general. There are just a lot of writers, both young and old, people that have been doing it a long while, that don't know what a fucking story is. That a location is not a story. A holiday is not a story. A vacation home isn't a story.
There are, know, again, not to point to Seinfeld, but they do the episode that Peter Melman wrote, the Hamptons. It takes place, they go to the house in the Hamptons. That's not the episode. That's not the story. It is a location. The story is, or the stories are, George gets out of the water and, you know, the other woman sees him changing and shrinkage and the penis being wet and whatnot. And I can't remember the other pieces, but ⁓ the kosher and stealing the lobster.
Those are stories. A house in the Hamptons is not a story. And people don't know the difference. And it's the same thing with pilots. It's just a lot of oftentimes like, now, okay, it's a show about a car wash. ⁓ okay, I don't know what that is. It's a car wash. Like, why is it a car wash? we getting into, is it about something about like, I don't know, forgive me. I hope I'm not stereotyping here. The notion of like,
Nic (40:47)
Yeah.
David (41:10)
low end workers, undocumented workers, are we trying to do something in that? And then that's why we're in a car wash? No, we're just in a car wash because you've just magically picked a location because that's how you think stories work and they don't.
Nic (41:23)
It's interesting you're talking about stories and I was thinking about like character arcs, you know, as in a typical like book or story, the main, the protagonist, their character evolves from one thing to another one. And I would imagine in sitcoms it might happen depending on the context. But in some it don't. Like, for example, if we go back to Seinfeld, Seinfeld was probably the same character in the first episode.
David (41:48)
particularly changed much, but when you look back and again, this is another one of the really sort of, I think, very influential things. And again, there were stabs at it. I mean, you can certainly say that things happened on like mash, like Margaret getting married and some of the characters dying. And you go back to I Love Lucy when they made the decision, she's going to get pregnant and have the baby. So you had these arcs, but Seinfeld, especially at the time, you know, those sort of, some of those sort of
arcs of like, you know, they're going, and again, it's like, you know, like George getting married or George getting engaged. Then of course, ultimately Susan dying, those arcs and the curb arcs of like, Larry thinks he's adopted and giving kidneys and the, know, like getting divorced from Cheryl or trying to do a Seinfeld reunion or whatever it is. Those arcs definitely, again, I, you we were talking about thickening the stew. think those things add a really great extra level.
to these things. And I do think, I mean, there might not be great character change, but there's just a, there's a sense of story movement that I do think helps. But yes, you're right. Technically speaking, there's not a particular amount of learning in any way, shape or form.
Nic (42:58)
Yeah, you know, it's interesting as we think about these sitcom episodes, ⁓ you know, it's not just coming up with the original story, which you were talking about before, but you also have to capture the attention of people for 30 minutes or 60 minutes, however long that is, right? So there's an element of coming up with the original thing, but then there's this magic sauce that you put into almost like every single minute because it's especially in today's
David (43:25)
I can tell you the secret to every great I mean certainly Seinfeld curb outline but also honestly I've taken it to every show I've done and the movies and whatnot which is Every scene has to move the plot if the scene if the plot isn't moving You're gonna pay a price somewhere. Maybe not there. Maybe later in act 3 but Every scene has to move the plot
And I've had great scenes and things that were very funny that didn't move the plot forward. And ultimately you have to figure out a way to make that scene move the plot forward or you're going to lose that scene because comedy for comedy sake, it can be wonderful, but it's got to move the plot along. And that's why Seinfeld is so complicated. That's why Curb is so complicated because the plot is always moving. And now we're back to...
You know, fat guy and pretty woman arguing about the track. There's no plot. It's just, it's just the same. It's lost thing. You know, when you watch a Seinfeld, it has, you know, Billy Wilder-esque speed, you know, like a, like it hotter, a one, two, three. It's flying. And yet also there's a tremendous amount of story buried in it beyond the jokes. Watch these other shows.
Nic (44:22)
Yeah.
David (44:43)
It's just jokes, no story, it just, can work, but it's really hard. know, a lot of times it's just exhausting.
Nic (44:51)
Yeah. How do you compete for people's attention? I we talked before about these major studios going, you know, poof. ⁓ You know, now you're competing with, you know, at the time of Seinfeld, if I recall, this would have been the 90s. The Internet was barely a thing. You know, now you're competing with TikTok and Instagram and all the things and anybody can put a YouTube video together and stuff like that. So there's much more competition.
David (45:17)
Yeah,
I mean, my youngest doesn't watch TV. He only watches YouTube basically. And I think, look, certainly, I know from watching with Veep, and again, this is more now, my daughter will show me Veep TikToks all the time. And I think it's great because I'm hoping somebody goes and checks out an episode, but just the fact that it's whatever. So, I mean, certainly I can understand that the internet can be part of something.
But how you find it, I don't know. And certainly when most people aren't promoting television and don't seem to care, I've got no answers. It's part of the problem, you know?
Nic (45:51)
Yeah. So when you think about where we are today and how the field has evolved, what major changes are you seeing that you're like, okay, this is where the puck is going or where you want to take the puck because you're also defining it as you write.
David (46:06)
I'm not defining anything. What I'm seeing is more and more, you know, I mean, you know, it's a funny thing. It's like we've been through periods like this, but now it's really almost on television where it's just like, it just almost seems like they're much more interested in one hours. They're much more interested in, at least one hour's travel better. Also, why not spend, why not spend all that money on an hour instead of spending a lot of money on a half hour? You fill an hour. IP, IP, IP. I mean, I don't know. It just,
And I will also say there's just less forgiveness for something to slow build and slow burn or for people to figure out or to realize is good. I got no answers. think it's just terrible. In the old days, with a theatrical release and then a cable release and then possibly a physical media, Blu-ray, DVD, whatever release. And then maybe even when it shows up on NBC as a movie,
multiple bites of the apple, multiple chances to earn money back, to make a profit, multiple chances for something to catch on that maybe didn't work in the first form, but comes a cult hit or something like that. Just now it just feels like, you know, they used to talk about something like a movie, you know, would like come out on a Friday morning and could be dead by Friday afternoon. And you, but even then you might get another chance on home video or something or something like that. And now it just seems like shit comes and goes.
I hear about stuff, you someone goes, I watched that six months ago. It's like, I'm just hearing about it. I've got no answer. I'm in the business and I don't hear about. I'm not particularly hopeful. Yeah.
Nic (47:40)
stuff.
Yeah, it seems like a theory. I do remember like the spinal taps and movies like that that would just come out and, you know, they would get this resurgence later on, become a cult, you know, favorite. And it does feel like things are coming at us so fast. mean, where I am hopeful is, you you mentioned there that like Netflix kind of like ate the entire field. But over the last year or so, it's a couple of years, I've been seeing a resurgence by other media companies like Paramount Plus and others that they're putting out some amazing shows.
that you know like land man and others.
David (48:17)
making some amazing shows, but they're making six of them and eight of them and then they don't come out again for two years. I I just, it just, it's why are there not more and why, mean, I don't, you know, it's just like, used to make 22. I mean, even Veep, made 10. So yes, but I guess is where I go with it. just, and then by the way, you know, like, like think about like, you know, again, when we were watching sort of, you will,
Nic (48:39)
Well you were-
David (48:47)
somewhat on linear TV, even though it was cable, you know, the notion of the, you know, uh, of the sort of the, the communal Sunday night of like the, couple of great HBO shows and then this Toronto's or whatever, whatever that communal thing is gone. The notion that we're all watching some of the same things has gone that we're watching it together is gone. Must see TV, you know, Thursday at nine, you know, talk about it the next day because we all watch it then. So that's a thing that's gone.
But also you do start to realize like where maybe they once had like, I don't know, you know, more shows at a given time. Like any one of these streamers will have one or maybe two shows or one and then it ends and another. They're just for all the streaming we have, I find myself sometimes just looking around for trying to find something to watch. And then more often than not end up just watching some old movie because it's not finding it. mean, I don't know. It's just, it's like,
In theory, we were supposed to give this sense of like, you get anything at any time, but they're constantly taking stuff off and on. And again, I don't have the answer. It's just not, I just think we have done irreparable harm to the entertainment industry. And that's not even getting into the fact that how much is being shot overseas and not in LA and just the LA studios are dying and the workout here in general. just, yeah.
Nic (50:12)
Wow. Yeah, it's a it being on the outside. I don't see that. Right. I just see like endless streams of stuff coming at me so much so that to your point, I remember being a kid and there would be you would know the big movies coming out every year and everybody would go watch them because they wouldn't be like overlapping. There'd be one big one one month and then maybe a couple of months later, another one. And then, you know, you never eventually everybody would watch him. Now I find myself just in it could be just
I'm older, but movies just come and go and then I'll see like who won the Oscar last year. I'm like, how did they win the Oscar? never heard of this movie.
David (50:50)
Again, I've got no great answer, but it's what they've done to us.
Nic (50:54)
Have you ever considered like, you know, some of the, you know, really funny ones that I see lately are like the Pixar and the animation movies, you know, because there's an element of like this cartoon it's for kids, but they're hitting us such deep concepts.
David (51:08)
Yeah, they're fantastic. They're absolutely fantastic. Yeah.
Nic (51:10)
Yeah.
But ⁓ it's really interesting the way that this is all evolving. I do miss that what you said, though, that element of like looking forward to Thursdays because Seinfeld was on or Sundays because America's got talent or something like that would be on. know, now it's like, you know, everything's kind of like binge watching and it's all out at the same time. You do lose a little bit of what TV was at its core, part of like bringing people together, right? And the families in the same.
David (51:40)
There's
an article somewhere in the last month or so, and I wish I could remember where, that was basically sort of saying that you could probably, I mean, look, there's a lot of issues, but that the sort of, if you will, the current state of our disconnected politics and our us versus them, that there is a seed of that connected to the fact that we no longer working from sort of a common vocabulary of even pop culture.
And that there was something to be said for when everybody was watching, I guess, and I know it wasn't everybody, so I wanna be clear about that. I know it wasn't everybody, but there was a sense that when everybody was watching the Sopranos at 10 o'clock on Sunday night, that we were more alike than dislike. And now the opposite, so yeah.
Nic (52:25)
You know, you're right. actually does feel like it would like recalibrate us for as
David (52:30)
I'm
not I'm not it wasn't an original thought but I agree with
Nic (52:34)
Yeah, no, but I think about it. It's true. It's like no matter which direction your lives went throughout the day We'd all be like start fresh on Monday morning after having seen that episode on Sunday. Yes That's interesting
David (52:45)
Exactly.
And by the way, at least if I hate everything that you have to say about immigration, if we can talk about the Sopranos, that doesn't mean you're not a fucking asshole idiot. But at least we could maybe talk about the Sopranos and find, you know what I mean? There's something about like, yeah.
Nic (53:10)
Yeah, you know, it's I interviewed before a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist from New York Times and he was also fairly pessimistic about the field, especially with AI and the way technology is kind of gobbling up a lot of the content and people aren't getting credit for it and so on. You know, and then I hear your stories as well about how the entertainment industry is also ⁓ morphing because of all the streaming and everything that's happening.
I can't help but think that these things aren't gonna go away though. mean, there is a reason why they...
David (53:45)
We're not going backwards. I mean, I don't know what to, mean, again, this is why I have no answer. I just think this is what, this is the future. I think there will be fewer and fewer shows, fewer and fewer places that are making shows, and you will watch what you are given. And on some level, because there's a sense it's in your house, even though you are paying for your, service you have, obviously there's, least at the moment, there's still,
five or six left, I'm sure that'll shrink too. But there's a sense of, well, I've paid it and I know it gets deducted from your credit card, you know, whatever, either a year, once a year or, you know, every month. But there's a sense of like, well, then now all of this is free. So I just watch and there it is. And at some point you become less discerning, I think, when it's all just kind of there, you just begin to accept mediocrity and you just, it's a lowering of standards.
But also, just nobody cares. If the audience doesn't care, then why should the makers care? you know, until people start going, this is crap and turning it off or give, I don't know, there's no answer. It's not going to get solved, I guess, much in the same way more people aren't going to start buying newspapers. It's just not going to happen.
Nic (54:58)
Yeah, but there's still at the core, there's a fundamental human need, whether if it's the media that's working or not, like for example, journalism, nobody's going to buy papers, but you still need at some point, once we get past all this bullshit about fake news and all that kind of stuff, we need news. You don't think so?
David (55:14)
Never getting past that.
No, there is no world in which someone who disagrees with a fact for the rest of our lives won't go, that's a lie, that's fake, that's AI, that's a democratic, that's the left, whatever, whatever it is, it just doesn't matter. can't win. I there's no argument to win. Yeah. And there's no fact. My wife is a, my wife with the man hands, the farm hand, is a pediatrician. And she, you know,
She's people coming in where their older kids are vaccinated and they are not vaccine, their babies.
I'm not gonna win, I'm not gonna win.
Nic (55:53)
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's terrifying to see how much things have changed, not even just in our lifetimes. mean, over the last 10 years, not even 10 years, even 10 years. Yeah, it's crazy. I can only hope that for as much as it's changed in the negative direction from my perspective, maybe there's going to be a 10 years where it's going to equalize at some point. It'll never be back to what it was.
David (56:02)
Not even.
I think, look, there will always be things that are better and they're always good people. mean, I'll tell you, I can tell you that like the folks at HBO are always trying to do great work. I know that in my heart and my soul, they want to do great work. But, you know, certainly over the, I think I get the sense of the last couple of years, they haven't always had like the money they wanted for not, I don't mean, but just to work with and stuff.
you know, and things like that. so that, you know, again, these, this, these are the realities. So it's not like that there aren't people trying. And I think there's people trying and I think there's even people that think they're trying like in some of the other places that maybe aren't. But the point is, is I don't see how any of it really gets fixed, which doesn't mean every year there won't be at least one good show somewhere. There'll be a, there'll be a, you know, slow horses or whatever that you go, Oh, fuck, that's good. You know, that's great. You know,
Nic (57:08)
What's got your eye right now? Anything that you're watching that you're like, is really, this is gold?
David (57:15)
You know, it's funny, I am very thrilled, for example, like that the pit is back for season two, even though it's not particularly innovative. It's just good old fashioned medical storyline. And, you know, and they're doing like, at least they did like, I think 15 last year. mean, I don't know why they're not doing 30, but you know, again, I just. Just competent, educated, smart medical drama. Is it shocking? Is it surprising? Well, sometimes because they do cool.
cases and stuff, it didn't reinvent the wheel as far as I'm concerned, but it's enjoyable. So give me that. mentioned the, I mentioned Slow Horses, which I'm waiting for the new season. I'll be excited when that comes around. ⁓ I enjoyed, ⁓ I really did enjoy Landman, which is more of a comedy perhaps than most comedies, but I, did enjoy it. ⁓ So I'll, you know, I watched that. I just watched on,
This was from a couple of months ago. just watched a little mini series on Netflix, Death by Lightning, which is about Charles Guiteau, the presidential assassin who assassinated Garfield. That was really interesting. ⁓ So again, there's always going to be good stuff. You know what I mean? I like the chair company on HBO a lot. ⁓ So there's always stuff, but I just it's.
I find at any given month or two, I'm talking about one show and it used to be an embarrassment of riches. I guess that's my big complaint.
Nic (58:44)
Yeah. Plus also these shows come and go too. know, like Seinfeld was on for what, like 10 years or something like that. These things, became a staple of society. Now it's like you're talking about these shows that may or may not be here next year.
David (58:55)
No, I I joked at some point the seasons are going to be the season premiere, then followed the big two episode season, season premiere, then the finale. And then you'll wait two years for another two episodes. ⁓ Yeah, not fun.
Nic (59:07)
Yeah. ⁓ So this has been extraordinary. It's been eye opening for me because I just consume of these shows. I do get frustrated sometimes when it's like either a show's terminated or I have to wait too long for the next season or something like that. having an inside view of how these things work, how the writing happens. For me, from my perspective, why writing is interesting to me, it's beyond obviously the core elements, which is just education and learning and transferring knowledge and information across generations.
⁓ But it's also, being a scientist, I actually think we do a really shitty job of communication and writing.
David (59:45)
do
a shitty job of his teaching writing. mean, it's just, it's a lost art form. mean, it's my kids both suffered a little bit, which is, you know, when COVID hit them was sort of like fifth, sixth grade, basically, which are the prime learn to write years. So that's always, that's very exciting as we've sort of like had to, you know, they've both had to work to kind of like learn to write. And of course, what you start to then realize is that the school isn't even asking them to write that much. They kind of do it in the back end.
You skate through seventh, eighth, ninth grade without writing that much. It's just like, what's going on here? know, be writing every day, writing every week. Creative writing is out the window. That doesn't even exist anymore. So, you know, again, writing is just, it's just lost. Yeah.
Nic (1:00:22)
Yeah.
And it's a shame too because it's not just the act of writing, but it actually it's an exercise in shaping thought and logic and reasoning.
David (1:00:33)
Communicating
it's laying out a thought laying out a plan thinking about it thinking how you thinking about how you think about something I mean, it's all yeah, it's true about TV writing too or good movie and TV writing that you're trying to you don't sit down going I'm gonna teach the younger generation. You just are sitting down like this is a story I want to tell this is a message I want to give whatever it is, but yeah
Nic (1:00:53)
Yeah. Well, I have to hope that things will, like I said, level off at some point or balance out because I do miss these shows. I miss these sitcoms and people still talk about them. mean, people talk about Seinfeld. You know, what is it? It's been like 20 years. mean, people still talk about Seinfeld and Friends and all the cheers and Night Court and all these shows. And it's like, well, there's clearly an element of that that's still in the social consciousness because we miss them.
David (1:01:24)
Very much so, but at the same time, it is that funny thing of everybody going like, oh, when's the next great comedy movie coming? It's just like, well, if no one makes one, you're never going to get one. So,
Nic (1:01:35)
Yeah. So it's interesting. So David, you I mean, you've accomplished so much and you have Emmys, your name and the shows that you worked on are thing and movies. And you were on ⁓ Saturday Night Live as well. talked a little bit about this. You've accomplished so much and you're nowhere close to being done. You're still very active and prolific. But if we could zoom out for a second and fast forward, I don't know, five, 20 years into the future, whenever you think you'd have a moment to
sit around a campfire, smoking a cigar, or drinking a whiskey, whatever it is that you do, and reflect in your career in a way where you look back and think about your work and think about a best case scenario that would make you feel like you've achieved a full impact that you could have in your industry and how comedy is valued. What scenario would give you the deepest sense of fulfillment over what you've accomplished?
David (1:02:30)
I don't
know if I'll ever truly feel that. you know, my partial on the spectrum, I'm not sure why that's there. All great comedy writers. ⁓ But, ⁓ you know, I always jokingly said, like, you know, my tombstone will just say, like, wrote the Bizarro Jerry, that Seinfeld is sort of our I love Lucy and that, 50 years from now, I can't say anything else will be around, but whatever. you know, they'll somehow that hopefully will still be something.
I don't really know how to answer this. guess, honestly, I guess I'd like to hopefully sort of say that like, yeah, when someone like, you know, I get a kick out of the fact when someone all of sudden notices like, my God, his name is there and there and there and there. And what do these have in common? They're really great. his epi, I don't know. But again, ultimately, I guess it's just like, that episode, I just saw that episode you wrote and it was funny. I'll take that. I'll consider that fulfilling. ⁓ There's just a...
God, it's not that, boy, I just have no interest in it.
Nic (1:03:31)
No, I love it. mean, there's definitely so much creative genius that goes into your work. from my perspective, again, it just it's reflected in these moments. And I can't describe, I can't put into words what it's like. But for example, when Duncan was like, yeah, David wrote The Man Hands, there was like this elation. just kind of like it woke me up to like remembering watching that. And it put me back into a situation 20, 25 years ago, how old I was, where I was, where I was living.
And in just the fact that you wrote it, I was like, well, this guy touched my life in a way that I still remember that episode. It was something so unique.
David (1:04:09)
appreciate that. will tell you that, you know, like I have some friends that like will watch Seinfeld when they travel, meaning like they're in a hotel and they kind of just put on like, I don't know, whatever TNT, I don't even know where Seinfeld airs on the regular, but they'll put whatever it on and I'll just get a text and it'll be like, I'm in Austin for business and I will stop Bizarro Jerry. You know what I mean? Yeah. Also have friends that still watch it every night at 11 o'clock on like whatever.
And so I will, know, every whatever it is, every cycle, I'll get the I just saw you as an extra in one of the episodes. I just saw your episode. I'm good with that. I'm OK with that. I'm OK. You know, if that annoys me for the rest of my life, I'm.
Nic (1:04:53)
Well, David, this has been extraordinary. It really has been both insightful and a joy to talk to you about this and learn more about this. I look forward to the body of work that you're going to be putting forward in the future. I definitely look forward to seeing and going back to some reruns and seeing some of the episodes that I remember nostalgically growing up. But it's been extraordinary. Thank you very much for being here and thank you for being on UnNatural Selection.
